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We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

theguardian.com

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Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#81

Post by mozumder »

olau wrote: post #17

Actually, I think behind the nationalisation idea, which doesn't seem workable given the circumstances, there's an interesting thought: these companies are sitting on basic infrastructure so instead of treating them like other companies, perhaps we should treat them like utilities. Note that this piece appears in The Guardian. I don't know how it works in the US, but I'm of the impression that in many European countr…

If you want to turn these into utilities, you start with a standardization process that allows the public to utilize them as infrastructure.

Like there is an HTML standard, there would likely be a search standard and a social-network/photo-sharing/messaging-platform standard. People would run their own servers that host their own data that connects to these standards, with other companies creating apps that people can use to connect to them.

And make the standards UX friendly, so that it becomes obvious and intuitive enough to use.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#82

Post by mozumder »

hnlmorg wrote: post #74
lucb1e wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would also make me a lot happier about sharing info with said companies. Right now I avoid their products (the non-open source ones) because they just have too much market share and power, but if a site like Facebook turned non-profit I'd be much happier to use it. It just sounds like a great idea all around.

Honestly I'd be more worried about nation states having access to the information held on Facebook and Google than I would private corporations.

It's a perfectly fine situation for nation-states to have access to such data, because nation-states already have access to everything inside Facebook and Google. In the US, you only need a warrant to access anything inside those companies.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#83

Post by Quarrelsome »

The sad thing is that I actually trust Google, Amazon and Facebook (maybe less the last two) more than I do the British government. Obviously that can change but at least these giants understand tech. Their response in the Snowdon leaks to being tapped was correct. The UK's response to any perceived threat is to question the validity of core technologies such as encryption.

Nationalisation of the big tech services by government would just lead to pointless tail chasing as the they learn in the slowest possible way that the internet can route around the blockades they wish to implement. Giving the government something like Facebook is akin to giving the reins to some unchecked righteous teen who thinks they know how to make it all "better".

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#84

Post by dragonwriter »

panic wrote: post #55
Veratyr wrote: post #2

I totally agree that Google, Facebook and Amazon have too much power and too little accountability. However they're all global companies and as bad as they are, I trust all of them more than I trust the US government (I am not American). Can you even imagine how their business would work when these are state entities? You're no longer buying ad placements from a marketing company, you're buying them from the US gover…

If Google and Facebook were nationalized, why would they need to sell ads?

The same reason the postal service does. They still have to pay the bills.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#85

Post by alpb »

csdreamer7 wrote: post #75

Why doesn't the author mention Microsoft? Why hasn't anyone else mentioned Microsoft in the comments? Mobile might be what people use most of the time. But for productivity, specialty applications (X-Ray software, billing, medical applications, scientific, tool software, video editing, 3d rendering, ATMs, cash registers) Windows dominates. There is a huge body of software that can not be used on mobile. Bill Gates th…

You should look at the Four Horsemen talk by Scott Galloway. Microsoft just doesn't possess the same power and market cap proportional to its age as these three companies. Note, Apple is also not mentioned.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#86

Post by simonh »

visarga wrote: post #41
Veratyr wrote: post #2

I totally agree that Google, Facebook and Amazon have too much power and too little accountability. However they're all global companies and as bad as they are, I trust all of them more than I trust the US government (I am not American). Can you even imagine how their business would work when these are state entities? You're no longer buying ad placements from a marketing company, you're buying them from the US gover…

Maybe nationalization is a bad way to go about it, but these companies are too large, they have too much power over society and society needs to exert power back onto them. So there should be some kind of external oversight when decisions that affect millions of people are being made. I think governments are inefficient and corrupt, but companies are absolutely free to do as they please when deciding how to change pr…

You mean like a set of regulations these companies had to comply with? Maybe with panels of ordinary citizens to adjudicate their application, overseen by a professional expert. Maybe we could call these regulations 'laws'.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#87

Post by slowmovintarget »

bem94 wrote: post #18

I think a lot of the "oh my gosh nationalisation is such an awful idea" / "not in my free society" comments are missing the point. I too believe nationalisation is a bad idea in this case , but given the enormous reaction it would bring, can you imagine how awful the situation appears to be from the authors (any many other non-tech-bubble) peoples perspective to even contemplate such a thing? Let alone write an opini…

Things are awful because someone wrote an opinion piece in the newspaper?

I heartily disagree that anyone should "detect a consensus" from leftists preaching expropriation. That's just an ordinary activity for them. Nick Srnicek may be shouting a bit louder than most from his pulpit in The Guardian, but that has as little to do with truth as his article has to do with reason.

Google, Facebook, and Amazon are just fashionable targets for his emotional appeals for a more powerful state. He doesn't write about Monsanto in this article, even though they have an ever tightening control over the food we eat, because they aren't as well understood by the masses.

Bread and circuses. This is the circus part.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#89

Post by peoplewindow »

olau wrote: post #17

Actually, I think behind the nationalisation idea, which doesn't seem workable given the circumstances, there's an interesting thought: these companies are sitting on basic infrastructure so instead of treating them like other companies, perhaps we should treat them like utilities. Note that this piece appears in The Guardian. I don't know how it works in the US, but I'm of the impression that in many European countr…

The Guardian is based in the UK where energy, water, transport and communication are all handled by the private sector.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#90

Post by dcraw »

Most people seem to be evaluating this question on an egalitarian premise: what's best for the greatest number of people? On that premise, taking money from very wealthy people and giving it to others will always seems appealing (even though it destroys wealth).

But let's evaluate it from the premise of justice. By what principle can we remove control of these companies from those who created them? From those who have worked there and earned equity in them? From those who have invested in the public stock in order to fund growth and earn a return? By what principle can a government interfere with a private contract, one that has governed how a group of people work together for 15 or 20 years, and unilaterally break it?

The argument is that the companies have too much power. But what kind of power? Can they take money out of your paycheck without your permission? Can they prevent you from erecting a building on your property without their approval? Can they imprison you for failing to appear at a hearing?

There is a difference between government power and economic power. Government power is the power to compel, and it the source of the power is the army and the police, or, more bluntly, the gun.

Economic power is the power to create. The source of economic power is the value that is offered. Sometimes a business offers something so valuable that people shape their lives around its presence and start to take it for granted. These are the businesses we punish most.

Should we turn economic power into government power? The immediate implication is frightening. All three of these companies have well-staffed legal departments challenging the government's requests for private information about their users. Who will fight those requests when these companies are agencies of the executive office?

The long term implications are devastating. Who will create the next Facebook, Google, or Amazon with the prospect of working 20 years and having it taken by force, as punishment for succeeding too much?

And would a nationalized Google have created a self-driving car? Would a nationalized Amazon have invented AWS? Would a nationalized Facebook invest in high-speed internet for Africa? Nationalization destroys growth.

Economic growth follows economic freedom. The world has experimented many times, and the theory and the experiments agree—Venezuela is only the most recent tragic example. At the root of any other argument is a desire to redistribute wealth.

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