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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

nytimes.com

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#261

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

ghaff wrote: post #166
jasode wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything Computer programming as a self-motivated hobby is not unique in this. Many electrical engineers started playing with electronics as kids (e.g. disassembling radios, wiring up homemade amps, etc). Many mathematicians "play" with math as kids before they go to college and get a teaching/research position. (E.g. Andrew Wiles…

Yes, there's often a level of interest beyond "Hey, I liked this class in high school." But I'd still argue that the computer science space is unique in that there's a fairly widespread expectation (as seen in these threads) that it's expected to be some sort of passion indulged in since childhood. To the degree that a lot of today's university CS programs don't effectively accommodate those without previous experien…

That's exactly my point: there is an expectation associated, especially from the HN echo-chamber, that you've been passionately programming since your early teenage years and that if not you're just a pretender looking for the salary and can't solve problems.

> As a mechanical engineering major undergrad, I can assure you that I had no particular experience in the area prior to college.

I'd say this is true of most people entering college. Hence we have introductory courses to learn there.

It's a shame that so many people on here and elsewhere simply want to discourage people from following an interest simply because they discovered it later.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#262

Post by oneneptune »

gfodor wrote: post #44
enraged_camel wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>When I was hiring and screening hundreds of people, applications would show 'projects' completed on them as if they were real work. You have to start somewhere, right? Those projects may not be "real" work but they may be enough to have given the candidate exposure to various problem domains and experience in solving problems using code, which should really be sufficient if you are hiring entry-level devs. I mean w…

The difference between the projects you do on your weekends and projects a code school student completes are absolutely immense. An applicant with strong weekend projects implies: - They have a passion for building software - They are self directed learners - They have the initiative and determination to build things and ship them - They managed to navigate problems without having an instructor hold their hand - They…

What about bootcamp projects on the resume that are solo projects? I have 3 bootcamp projects on my resume and was the only contributor to all 3.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#263

Post by bluGill »

tucif wrote: post #243
freshhawk wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way as you would in every other type of education. If you know what you are doing, it is easy to see how close the student came to getting it right or if they were completely on the wrong track.

couldn't this open the path to approving programming courses without ever handing in compiling code? What about pseudo code that has the "right logic" but will never compile? What if I submit python code that works as a c file, should that count?

I passed a lot of my math and physics courses even though the majority of my proofs were incorrect in some way. I didn't get full credit, but I got enough to get some.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#264

Post by jasode »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #260
jasode wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No one expects a chemical engineering 1st year student to have mastered Neither ghaff nor I wrote anything about kids "mastering" the STEM topics before college or the first job. Therefore, that higher standard stated by you is a strawman. I thought ghaff was talking about STEM side projects which is certainly something within the abilities of teenagers without mastery of programming. That's what my reply to him/her…

Thank you for illustrating my point. No one would be expected to do meet those high standards, as you say. No one would be expected to be experts in basic chemistry by their first year of college. Yet in this very post, there are countless examples of people saying the best programmers were the ones that knew it all before college, who didn't need college, who put in the time to learn before college, etc. No other fi…

>in this very post, there are countless examples of people saying the best programmers were the ones that knew it all before college,

Nobody in this thread has said that programmers should "know it all" before college. You're injecting conditions and standards (like "mastery") that no poster actually wrote.

>No other field is this expected. That's the point.

This isn't true. You can see coaching advice for electrical engineers to update their resume with any DIY (do-it-yourself) electronics projects that would demonstrate self-motivation, passion, etc to potential employers. In that respect, it's not much different than computer programming. Do electrical engineers get jobs without any personal side projects?!? Yes, of course. Same as computer science -- many programmers get jobs without side projects.

In both scenarios, it isn't absolutely necessary but it's a way to stand out from the crowd.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#265

Post by [deleted] »

TuringNYC wrote: post #168
vonmoltke wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

There is a third category here too: 1. In for the money, no love for the job 2. In for the money, but also love the job, codes on spare time 3. Category 2, but no more free time (family, older parents) I was in Category 2 but now on category 3. I show up to work early, work intensely, do not waste any time, and try to leave at a normal hour. On weekends, instead of open source projects, I'm spending the time with my…

[deleted]

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#266

Post by rvr_ »

Many of us like to compare software development with other engineering disciplines. I like to compare it to playing music. Sure you can learn to play some simple songs in a couple of months, but it takes lots of effort to master an instrument. Like musicians and sports players, there is no easy way to become really good as a software developer if you don't start as early as possible and dedicates your life to it.

Coding bootcamps are just trying to sell a short path where it is not possible to have one.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#267

Post by WindyCityBrew »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #4

The rapid expansion was likely a huge part of why those coding bootcamps closed. Coding bootcamps generally aren't major educational institutions - they're usually more like recruiting agencies that happen to target people who are about 9 weeks of serious effort away from being entry-level developers. That is, they're limited by the number of high-quality applicants that they can find and vet, not by the ability to r…

This makes sense to me and rings true to my own experience. I went to a bootcamp and the people that did the best were those with a good deal of prior experience, and thus able to digest the most information. Students coming with zero (or close to it) programming experience/effort didn't perform well.

I'm including myself in the "good deal of prior experience" group, I did fine in the class and in my subsequent jobs. My class even had students that had been web devs on less desirable stacks using the class to ramp up on rails and they did even better.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#268

Post by dcole2929 »

jasode wrote: post #251
dcole2929 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are way off base here. The issue here that group 2 by it's very nature, being passionate, is way more vocal and outspoken about the issue than your group 1 people. It's not a problem that group 2 people want to work with other group 2 people so far in that it doesn't affect group 1 people but that's not how it works. Your group 1 people generally don't care who they work with so long as they can do the job. The p…

>Your group 1 people generally don't care who they work with so long as they can do the job. The problem is that by [group 2] being far more vocal they affect things like hiring, and who gets promoted which does negatively affect group 1 people. Well, G2 people have an affinity for other G2 people. That's human nature! That's not toxic. Look at the various reasons given by G2 posters in this thread: they enjoy a work…

Literally nothing in your comment rebuts my argument. It's not an issue that you want to mostly be with other G2 people. That's perfectly fine and people understand that. It's an issue when you're desire pushes all the G1 people out of the work place.

I'm not going to think of programmers as musicians because they're not. They are employees of whatever company. They are there to do a job. It's great that you want to work with like minded people but if that desire means that qualified G1 people can't get hired at your company that's a problem. If your desire means that g1 people can't get promoted that's a problem.

As a thought experiment replace like-minded people, with people of the same race. Or people of the same gender. Or people of the same religion. Do you see the problem now? A mindset that excludes some large percentage of people based on arbitrary standards that has nothing to do with their ability to do a job is always going to be problematic.

Side note if you lead with "looking for passionate" you're already misconstruing the issue, because what a company should be looking for is "able to do the job to whatever standard we've set"

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#269

Post by ameister14 »

ryandrake wrote: post #258
ameister14 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Produce it on your own time, using no company resources. If a company claims ownership of everything you produce in your own time using your own resources, you've signed the worst contract possible and the company should go out of business. Most of the time, they claim things you make using their resources or company time. Avoiding that avoids most issues.

Anecdotal, but most companies I've worked for have policies that claim ownership of everything I produced in my own time on my own equipment. I think that's the rule, not the exception.

That's awful. You should negotiate that out of the contract or at least limit it.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#270

Post by stale2002 »

sidlls wrote: post #233
stale2002 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then how come our salaries are so high in the bay area? There is certainly a geographic shortage at least, right? Perhaps those people in the UK need to move to a location where their skills are more in demand.

First, our salaries aren't high compared to the value we generate for these companies. Second, the relatively higher salaries we get out here are driven by two things: 1) the number of companies competing for talent and 2) the artificial scarcity induced by how they define the arena of competition (over-focus on "CS fundamentals" and under-focus on engineering fundamentals).

If demand is high, because of a large amount of companies that are competing for talent... And supply is low enough that it can't fulfill that demand, then that is a shortage.

Supply being unable to fulfill a large amount of demand is the definition of a shortage.

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