As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check • Hacker News Board

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#161

Post by phatbyte » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:36 PM UTC

tudelo wrote: post #122

phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

The most boring category is interesting... I might fall in to that category. Any advice to be "less boring"?

I didn't mean to say ALL of them obviously, I just meant to say that a lot of devs who only learned to code in college, usually don't code for fun, just code to get the job done. By no means are they bad programmers, in fact they are good coders, they just lack curiosity and some creativity. Is like IBM vs Apple in the 70s if you know what I mean :P

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#162

Post by eighthnate » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:41 PM UTC

These boot camps are just this decades iteration of the "tech/programming schools" of the 2000s.

In the 2000s, tons of programming schools were created to exploit the lax student loan programs. They would bring in countless people and charge then $10K or $20K or even more to teach "programming" that you could realistically learn on your own. But it was so easy for people to get student loans and it was so easy for these schools to get people low-end programming jobs, that they made a killing off of it.

After the financial crisis and the crackdown on ineffective "programming/tech" schools ( especially their student loan programs ), these guys rebranded and remarketed themselves into "boot camps" which take a portion of your future wages.

When times are good, pretty much anyone who can type of a keyboard can get a job, but when a recession comes, these "boot camps" graduates are the first to be let go.

So my guess is that these boot camps expect a recession soon and are cashing out. Maybe they are the canary in the coal mine. Maybe the tech bubble is going to pop soon. Given how much they charge (10 to 15%) of the wages for the first few years of their graduates, I doubt they would leave so much money on the table unless they feel a shift in the economy or hiring is coming in the near future.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#163

Post by vonmoltke » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:43 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #136

vonmoltke wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

>Who cares? Many programmers who enjoy programming will have a preference for hiring other programmers who also enjoy it. That doesn't mean they can't hire dispassionate programmers but that still doesn't erase the preference for passionate programmers. >This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. There's definitely a place for dispassionate programmers (as that's probably the majorit…

This isn't about preferences. This is about the false dichotomy proffered in the original post I responded to, and elsewhere from time to time, that there exist only programmers-who-love-their-craft and programmers-who-just-want-a-fat-paycheck, and that the former is orders of magnitude better than the latter. I also think "love" is significantly stronger than "enjoy" or "interested in".

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#164

Post by stult » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:43 PM UTC

larzang wrote: post #118

Alacart wrote: post #80

Who gives a shit where or how you learned to code. What a stupid and indirect way to filter candidates. Just show me what you've done. Send me repo links, production code, or even just the end result with some sort of proof that you actually built it. That's the best part about any craft - practicing or building something creates tangible results. If you don't already have a portfolio, get to work on that before you…

That's great for front-end guys, but it's frustrating to me as a back-end developer to have expectations that I can show live examples of my past work to potential employers when I've spent years designing and building enterprise internal systems which have no visible result outside of the code itself, which is under strict NDA. I get it, development is a craft, it's easy to judge the quality or experience level of a…

Have you tried putting together an abbreviated version of your work on github? I've had success with toy utility apps to demonstrate my coding style and basic competencies because I am in a very similar position. Generally I've found it's less about having a large, completed application and more about having a solid chunk that's well architected and demonstrates an understanding of best practices. Like I have a bare bones UI WPF app with multiple projects, dependency injection with a stairway pattern, thorough comments, and decent though not complete unit test coverage. It doesn't do anything special and it only took like a weekend to put together, but it shows I know what I'm doing. It's a private repo and none of the code shows up in Google searches so it's also pretty clear that I didn't just copy and paste someone else's work.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#165

Post by vonmoltke » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:46 PM UTC

arjie wrote: post #133

vonmoltke wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

Probably because you want to grow as a professional and it's much easier in an environment where our coworkers also want to grow. If they're content with where they are, there are numerous problems: • as the business case becomes more complex, they won't adapt • as you grow and progress, you'll be promoted and they won't. No one wants to work in an atmosphere of resentment. • you want to learn from your coworkers whi…

Growing as a professional requires some combination of drive, ambition, and work ethic. Interest in the job may make those things easier to find, but it is not a primary driver.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#166

Post by ghaff » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:46 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #153

ghaff wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also comes back to broader discussions about programmers needing to have worked on this stuff since they were kids. Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything other than to have enjoyed and done well in high school chemistry prior to college or to have chemical engineering "side projects."

>Perhaps uniquely among STEM subjects. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done anything Computer programming as a self-motivated hobby is not unique in this. Many electrical engineers started playing with electronics as kids (e.g. disassembling radios, wiring up homemade amps, etc). Many mathematicians "play" with math as kids before they go to college and get a teaching/research position. (E.g. Andrew Wiles…

Yes, there's often a level of interest beyond "Hey, I liked this class in high school." But I'd still argue that the computer science space is unique in that there's a fairly widespread expectation (as seen in these threads) that it's expected to be some sort of passion indulged in since childhood. To the degree that a lot of today's university CS programs don't effectively accommodate those without previous experience. As a mechanical engineering major undergrad, I can assure you that I had no particular experience in the area prior to college.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#167

Post by sidlls » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:48 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #136

vonmoltke wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

>Who cares? Many programmers who enjoy programming will have a preference for hiring other programmers who also enjoy it. That doesn't mean they can't hire dispassionate programmers but that still doesn't erase the preference for passionate programmers. >This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. There's definitely a place for dispassionate programmers (as that's probably the majorit…

How is anything you quoted "vilification"? I look at it the same as I look at, say, the interview process: he or she is pointing out a flaw in the reasoning used to support "passion as a proxy for merit," which is basically what that preference is.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#168

Post by TuringNYC » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:50 PM UTC

vonmoltke wrote: post #124

phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

There is a third category here too:

1. In for the money, no love for the job

2. In for the money, but also love the job, codes on spare time

3. Category 2, but no more free time (family, older parents)

I was in Category 2 but now on category 3. I show up to work early, work intensely, do not waste any time, and try to leave at a normal hour. On weekends, instead of open source projects, I'm spending the time with my mom who is getting much older and requires help and emotional support from the family. That does not mean I have poor ethic or lack of interest, it just means I have a lot of family commitments. I am very productive at work, I love it, but there are clear boundaries unless there is some major deadline or production issue. Speaking of Production issues, I write very very good code to ensure I dont have Prod issues and/or I can quickly do a root-cause-analysis of issues that pop up. My personal needs focus me like a laser on productive time at the office.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#169

Post by vonmoltke » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:51 PM UTC

chrisco255 wrote: post #142

vonmoltke wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and professionalism to continue to do so? The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work ethic. > The most boring developers I work with, the the one…

This field changes so much that if you aren't passionate and investing in your skills continuously, you will find yourself obsolete or in a non-technical role within 5-7 years. Think about that. How many years does it take just to become technically proficient?

Why do you need to be passionate to improve your skills continuously? Why does being passionate guarantee you are going to develop the right skills rather than latch on to an academically-satisfying yet commercially-useless niche?

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#170

Post by phatbyte » Fri, Aug 25, 2017, 1:53 PM UTC

aczerepinski wrote: post #126

phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

A 93% failure rate is absurdly high, and probably more indicative of an inadequate hiring process than "bootcamp grads are all dumb lolz". Are there any examples you could share of relevant interview questions that this group faked their way through, but later were revealed to not understand? Have the hiring managers since been mentored on how to do a better job vetting candidates?

This was more than 2 years ago, I don't work there anymore. But to my best recall, the interview process was pretty straightforward, mostly revolved around basic programming knowledge (we knew we were aiming at junior devs). Basic programming questions (what is an object, an array, etc..), a few question on to approach a particular problem and lastly they were presented with vanilla JS file, with bugs and things that could be improved.

No algorithms, or data structures or complex problems to solve. Something that I would include if these were fresh college grads or senior developers with extensive background.

Again, I didn't mean to call anyone dumb, I don't think these people are dumb at all, they were just bad/fast trained.