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As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

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Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#251

Post by jasode »

dcole2929 wrote: post #248
jasode wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This idea that not having had an all-consuming for programming since childhood and not maintaining an active Github account for all your side projects means that we don't want your kind is toxic. Then you are not aware of the toxic comments from your peers who agree with you. To recap... Group 1: programming-is-just-a-job -- the majority -- The programmers who want to compartmentalize their programming strictly to 4…

You are way off base here. The issue here that group 2 by it's very nature, being passionate, is way more vocal and outspoken about the issue than your group 1 people. It's not a problem that group 2 people want to work with other group 2 people so far in that it doesn't affect group 1 people but that's not how it works. Your group 1 people generally don't care who they work with so long as they can do the job. The p…

>Your group 1 people generally don't care who they work with so long as they can do the job. The problem is that by [group 2] being far more vocal they affect things like hiring, and who gets promoted which does negatively affect group 1 people.

Well, G2 people have an affinity for other G2 people. That's human nature! That's not toxic. Look at the various reasons given by G2 posters in this thread: they enjoy a work environment with other G2 people. Just as one can prefer having a comfortable chair or closed office, a G2 can state honestly that they would be happier with other G2 colleagues. Just because that has an effect of G1 not getting hired does not mean it's toxic.

The analogy I like to use is a music band. If they're looking for a guitarist who's passionate about his instrument and music, the guitarist-just-a-job who has apathy about the music will not get invited to join the band. Maybe the apathetic guitarist can technically strum a C chord as well as the passionate guitarist. That's not enough. The band having a preference for the passionate guitarist is not being toxic.

Yes, for many G2 programmers who started as kids... programming/playing with the computer is a very similar intellectual high to a teenager exploring a guitar. Programming feels like fun artistic expression and not "work" or a "job". I think many G1 programmers really don't understand that. If they could view G2 programmers as band musicians, maybe they would have more empathy for the passionate programmers having a preference for like-minded people.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#252

Post by dcole2929 »

curun1r wrote: post #121
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

> The best developers I worked with are the self-taught guys/girls who learn on their own before they even hit the college I think this is the crux of the issues I had with bootcamp candidates. They were reasonably strong in the areas that they'd been taught, but there were gaping holes in their knowledge wherever they hadn't been taught. They could explain how to build a site with a Node backend and an Angular front…

Except most university cs programs don't teach any of those things either. I went to an excellent school for CS and we covered basically zero web concepts in our core CS classes. Sure we learned threading, but not any model that someone would actually use in real life making it at best primer for future learning and at worse worthless. I think it's an unreal expectation to think new devs from either Bootcamps or college are going to have a solid foundation on anything more than how to use a language and a few other domain concepts. CS grads don't know anything about the web or mobile generally but can learn. Bootcamp devs probably are missing database, and algo knowledge, but I don't think that stuff is any more difficult to learn either.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#253

Post by dcole2929 »

phatbyte wrote: post #170
aczerepinski wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 93% failure rate is absurdly high, and probably more indicative of an inadequate hiring process than "bootcamp grads are all dumb lolz". Are there any examples you could share of relevant interview questions that this group faked their way through, but later were revealed to not understand? Have the hiring managers since been mentored on how to do a better job vetting candidates?

This was more than 2 years ago, I don't work there anymore. But to my best recall, the interview process was pretty straightforward, mostly revolved around basic programming knowledge (we knew we were aiming at junior devs). Basic programming questions (what is an object, an array, etc..), a few question on to approach a particular problem and lastly they were presented with vanilla JS file, with bugs and things that…

>> presented with vanilla JS file, with bugs and things that could be improved.

Uhhh that's really difficult in js even for experienced devs. Way too much non deterministic behavior. I hope this exercise came with tests and a working debugger.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#254

Post by TechNut »

I got started in software through the Flatiron School. I spent three months learning a lot about development in general and iOS development in particular. I came out of it ready for an apprentice-like level of work: skilled enough to get paid, best fit for a company offering mentorship.

It was not a three-month CS degree, nor did it pretend to be. Comparing a person who changed careers as an adult to someone who started studying the subject in college is disingenuous. Also, comparing a person who needs guidance, colleagues and to start making money soon to a person who has 6 months or a year to spend learning on their own is similarly suspect. The fact is that if you came to software development by traditional school or self-teaching, these programs weren't trying to help people like you. Understand that people with different backgrounds can still contribute even if they don't contribute in the way you do.

As for the ability of folks coming out of these programs, it's a bad idea to equate all bootcamps with each other or all people within a program. A few years ago, there was a gold rush to this industry, so there will be jokers in the deck. Still, there are many talented, hard-working people for whom these programs were the best option. You don't have to hire them, but take them seriously.

P.S. - Traditional education and self-teaching do not have bulletproof records, either. I've spoken to lawyers who are disappointed in the ability of most Ivy League grads they interview. I've also spoken with many folks who tried to teach themselves software development but never built a full skill set.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#255

Post by puranjay »

toastking wrote: post #158
hugs wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes me wonder if 12 weeks in a startup accelerator is also not enough time to truly understand how to run a business, either.

Also startup accelerators usually work with businesses that already exist. It's actually a good analogy. If you already know a little bit about coding and computer science a bootcamp can really help. If you don't have the drive to learn programming than a bootcamp can leave you with a huge skills gap.

My first business failed miserably. I had no business training and no one in my family who'd ever run a business. I was just overwhelmed all the time and never had advisors to reach out to (a problem YC students wouldn't have)

In hindsight, I know what I did wrong and what I should have done instead.

I'd say it took me at least a year of failing before I could gather my bearings and understand what was going on.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#256

Post by ThrustVectoring »

_devise wrote: post #234
trowawee wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I believe, as a bootcamp grad, that you're going to be able to put aside your already-admitted bias when I make it to the table for the interview, or if I make it through the hiring process? Why would I want to work with a coworker who thinks "their resume looks great, but they're a bootcamp grad, so it must be a lie"? How can I be confident that you won't throw some bullshit about me being a bootcamp grad…

In my area, I have had recruiters specifically tell me that they will not list junior positions because of the hiring market being completely oversaturated with bootcamp graduates. I have had several tell me something along the lines of "this is listed as a mid-to-senior level position, but that is just to keep bootcampers from applying". Without any commentary on whether you can be skilled/productive/knowledgeable a…

>"this is listed as a mid-to-senior level position, but that is just to keep bootcampers from applying"

Wouldn't help. Would actually be counterproductive. Listing requirements higher than actual requirements is a game, and boot camps are good at figuring out and optimizing for games. Bootcampers will (and should) apply to literally every job description that involves writing code.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#257

Post by ryandrake »

acjohnson55 wrote: post #173
phatbyte wrote: post #117

As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight. 1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them, teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to get their money back. 2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job. Sorry, but it's tru…

For #3, I know a lot of people who started this way and then used a bootcamp to build modern skills. To me, that's a really solid combo. Having a bootcamp be your first intro to the field is a much tougher road.

This is a cool idea. Even though I've got close to 20 years under my belt, I could almost see myself going to one of these bootcamps simply to quickly update my skills to today's New Hotness (web development or ML). Wonder if it would actually be useful.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#258

Post by ryandrake »

ameister14 wrote: post #157
vonmoltke wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Make that code pleasant to read, free of legal constraints , and be ready and able to talk about it. That would be difficult for people who work for companies that claim presumptive ownership over everything they produce.

Produce it on your own time, using no company resources. If a company claims ownership of everything you produce in your own time using your own resources, you've signed the worst contract possible and the company should go out of business. Most of the time, they claim things you make using their resources or company time. Avoiding that avoids most issues.

Anecdotal, but most companies I've worked for have policies that claim ownership of everything I produced in my own time on my own equipment. I think that's the rule, not the exception.

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#259

Post by ryandrake »

speedplane wrote: post #102
peter303 wrote: post #95

At the annual Denver Startup Week I notice about a third to half of the startup industry is incestuous, that provides facilities for developers to work better. These are mainly code academies and coworking spaces. I feel if the tech industry ever ever has one of its periodic down turns, then this it could rapidly implode with all these developer services. The reality is about half of the workers entered the tech indu…

Don't count on that. If an economic downturn happens, it's entirely possible that the less experienced, but less expensive developers will do well. It may be the experienced one will feel the hurt.

We don't have to guess... What happened to each group during the last two tech/economic downturns (2000-2003 and 2007-2009)?

Re: As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check

#260

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

jasode wrote: post #244
ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not his point. No one expects a chemical engineering 1st year student to have mastered organic chemistry already. Just as no one expects a 1st year mechanical engineering student to thoroughly understand rigid body dynamics at age 10. Yea maybe they built an RC plane or did some home experiments, but if anyone is doing these things at a young age they are clearly far above their peers. > Andrew Wiles Example h…

>No one expects a chemical engineering 1st year student to have mastered Neither ghaff nor I wrote anything about kids "mastering" the STEM topics before college or the first job. Therefore, that higher standard stated by you is a strawman. I thought ghaff was talking about STEM side projects which is certainly something within the abilities of teenagers without mastery of programming. That's what my reply to him/her…

Thank you for illustrating my point.

No one would be expected to do meet those high standards, as you say. No one would be expected to be experts in basic chemistry by their first year of college.

Yet in this very post, there are countless examples of people saying the best programmers were the ones that knew it all before college, who didn't need college, who put in the time to learn before college, etc.

No other field is this expected. That's the point.

Playing with science and doing small little cute fun experiments is a lot different than me teaching myself productive front end development at age 16. I don't expect other 16 year olds overall to do as I did. Nor do I judge people if they didn't.

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