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The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

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Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this to be pretty much a very biased subjective analogy. I am a european so I hope my "anti-european-rant" will be better accepted but lets see... Europeans often have this illusion of a working social democracy compared to the US suggesting their by default offered benefits to be superior to the offers from the US. That's not the case. In a lot of middle-income-class positions you get most of the things you…

So then I guess my takeaway is then that there's great and poor working expectations and conditions in both areas. I found the US to be a highly negative experience and don't wish the stress on anyone. Being able to go home at night and not have to be on call or work overtime because it's expected is a great relief. I'll take that over a 100k salary any day. And certainly over my middle income job in California. Howe…

The developer market is so much bigger than the valley. I went there and left because, LOL like I'm joining a startup for 150K to live in SF.

If you don't care about brand name then work in other parts of the country, even remote. Easily pull down six figures and live like a king compared to Europeans. Typing this from Europe.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#72

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

Europe is able to do this because the US subsidizes their existence. 1. Pharma companies develop drugs with US subsidies and make their profits off US citizens while European countries put price ceilings on their drugs. 2. US essentially defends the world, allowing other countries to spend money elsewhere. http://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe-...

[deleted]

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#73

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

I found this to be pretty much a very biased subjective analogy. I am a european so I hope my "anti-european-rant" will be better accepted but lets see... Europeans often have this illusion of a working social democracy compared to the US suggesting their by default offered benefits to be superior to the offers from the US. That's not the case. In a lot of middle-income-class positions you get most of the things you…

Could you give some examples of the exploitation? Years ago I had a chance to live in France. I've watched French life pretty closely, and regret not going years ago.

At the time, I really believed our system was the best. Had a few life hiccups, and realized my great country, really had some serious flaws. And no--the wealthy look over the flaws, or don't ever experience them, or buy them away.

It's beyond the free/low cost college. It's the culture. It's just so many, common sense, stuff we just assumed we were stuck with. I was watching a movie the other night.

Employees in the French picture were inflamed over being surveiled by video while at work. I was confused. Here--I just assumed I'm being recorded.

Anyways--just curios?

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#74
Are the people who applied for research positions and got the job staying? I guess so. So, those who didn't get the job weren't the "brains" that the US needed? And apparently, China is paying big compensations for him because these are the "brains" that China desperately needs. It seems like everyone is happy.

What is the point of this article?

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#75
the real issue, unanswered by the article, is why didn't linsen li get job offers here? because the premise that we want to keep all the smart people here to generate more economic value for "us" rather than "them" is hard to disfavor.

1. was he deficient in some way that makes him unsuitable for the job?

2. did the university not provide the needed skills for the teaching positions he was applying for?

3. is the supply of qualified applicants so high that many receive no offers?

4. is there just not enough funding to employ every qualified academic?

5. is the regulatory environment such that we force many qualified jobseekers to look elsewhere?

...and so on. these seem to be the more pertinent questions in this case, not the political "trump is xenophobic and his policy sucks" slant of the article (whether you agree with that sentiment or not), because the uncertainty around imiigration policy doesn't seem to have had direct bearing in this situation. li didn't get a job in the US, so he's going to china, where he did get a job. pretty straightforward.

with that said, i believe we should allow much more immigration, not less (contrary to trump's position), but the light and disjoint reasoning in this article was a head scratcher.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#76

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

Europe is able to do this because the US subsidizes their existence. 1. Pharma companies develop drugs with US subsidies and make their profits off US citizens while European countries put price ceilings on their drugs. 2. US essentially defends the world, allowing other countries to spend money elsewhere. http://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe-...

> Pharma companies develop drugs with US subsidies and make their profits off US citizens while European countries put price ceilings on their drugs.

You conveniently forget the European drug companies who develop drugs—and completely pay for the research—while negotiating price ceilings, and then export the same drug to the US, selling it 5x the price for pure profit (minus distribution/marketing/lobby costs).

Disclaimer: my Dad managed research at one of those large European pharma companies.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#78
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An oversupply of PhDs or our capitalist system not aligning in a way to advance us in ways that don't model a ROI in three years or less?

No just an oversupply of people that really arent smart enough to push their fields forwards, they are just highly "educated". PHDs at average schools can be done by most people willing to put in long hours, we need to stop conflating these "highly educated" people with actual ingenuity. Capitalism rightly casts them off to the side.

I maintain that the biggest inefficiency of how we practice capitalism today is that it is casting aside the ability for people to contribute to society to their full potential. And as we advance economically, it seems that inefficiency is expanding to more and more people.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#79
My father was a postdoc in the 90s, having gotten his master's and Ph.D. here in the states. Mother has a Ph.D. as well. My family and Taiwanese, and I knew about this issue growing up. This doesn't just affect our family, it also affects the other Taiwanese families I am aware of.

The difference was that, back then, if we were to go back to Taiwan, there wasn't a guarantee that a US-trained Ph.D. would get any sort of employment.

It is similar, yet different with China: in the past 5 years, I have seen China, flushed with cash (from, you know, Americans) aggressively investing. Infrastructure investment is the most obvious -- for example, ambitious rail plans that not only stretch across China, but also into Europe and Africa. There is also an aggressive investment in cultural influence as well. (For example, trying to get Wushu recognized as an official Olympic sport).

And then there is advanced research. There are two teams in the world that researches quantum tunneling communication, and one of them is a Chinese team who was a protege of the PI of the only other team trying to pull it off. There is massive investment into AI/ML, into space, into military (both a carrier program as well as asymmetric military technologies such as drone carriers).

A postdoc in America doesn't really get much respect, not in the way the Chinese and Taiwanese do. You could struggle here in America, writing research grants, and your family doesn't know or doesn't even care. Or you could be offered being a director of a lab with a lot of funding. Family members and neighbors might not know the science behind what you do, yet they admire and respect you.

I remember this documentary about the creation of the Three Gorges Dam and the displacement of some families along that river. They showed a girl in a family who was sent off to work on the cruise ships for tourists who wanted to see the Three Gorges before it got flooded. The family needed money so they sent their daughter off -- a very Chinese things to do. The girl didn't want to work and the mother is telling her, sorry, this is for the family. You know what dream the girl was giving up? It wasn't an entertainer, or an entrepreneur. She wanted to become a scientist. She saw scientists as the heroes.

That's something I never hear in America.

I think a lot of people in the West forget that (despite the Cultural Revolution), the Ming dynasty Chinese at its ascendent had more reach, technological prowess, and industry of any other society ... and they deliberately turned inward: completed the Great Wall of China, recalled the exploration fleets, shut down their massive network of steel foundries, just before the time the Europeans were starting to explore and to colonize. China has had many cycles of empire expansions, consolidations, and fragmentations.

And I see America making the same mistakes ...

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#80
post #67
post #36

> The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain He got a good offer from his home country. Isn't that a good thing that he gets to go home to his country and contribute there? he fact they can spare $250k for him to buy a house and $1M in grant money says a lot about China. Having been in academia for a bit, it seemed there was an oversupply of PhD in some fields. There are just not going to be enough university teachi…

Hard to say what is really going on here or if there is even a problem at all. Academic positions have always been in short supply in many fields, particularly hard science. However I do get the sense it has gotten worse in recent decades but have no hard data. Are there actually fewer positions available? If so, what is the cause? There is lots of evidence that our universities have become less effective in both tea…

This NSF report [1] has a lot of interesting data.

It seems in particular we're seeing (1) more people get PhD's (see page 3) and (2) a lower proportion of PhD's securing post-PhD employment (see page 9).

[1] https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/2016/nsf16300/digest/nsf16300...

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