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The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

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Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#51

Post by ynniv »

CorvusCrypto wrote: post #37
holydude wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this to be pretty much a very biased subjective analogy. I am a european so I hope my "anti-european-rant" will be better accepted but lets see... Europeans often have this illusion of a working social democracy compared to the US suggesting their by default offered benefits to be superior to the offers from the US. That's not the case. In a lot of middle-income-class positions you get most of the things you…

So then I guess my takeaway is then that there's great and poor working expectations and conditions in both areas. I found the US to be a highly negative experience and don't wish the stress on anyone. Being able to go home at night and not have to be on call or work overtime because it's expected is a great relief. I'll take that over a 100k salary any day. And certainly over my middle income job in California. Howe…

There's so much variation that it's difficult to make a comparison. In my experience, it's reasonable for a senior developer in the US but not in SV to make over $130k in a 9-5 with a month's vacation. Compared to that, $60k and maybe an extra week's vacation doesn't look as nice. Developers are definitely pushed too hard in the US, but they are also definitely underpaid in Europe.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#52

Post by gozur88 »

CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

It sort of depends on where you work. I'm in the US and I get five weeks of vacation. My colleagues take off contiguous weeks all the time. Of course you're not going to get that in your first year at a startup, but that sort of thing is available in the US if you're willing to take a bit less money and you stay at the same company for awhile.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#53

Post by dv_dt »

rdtsc wrote: post #36

> The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain He got a good offer from his home country. Isn't that a good thing that he gets to go home to his country and contribute there? he fact they can spare $250k for him to buy a house and $1M in grant money says a lot about China. Having been in academia for a bit, it seemed there was an oversupply of PhD in some fields. There are just not going to be enough university teachi…

An oversupply of PhDs or our capitalist system not aligning in a way to advance us in ways that don't model a ROI in three years or less?

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#54

Post by gozur88 »

bauerd wrote: post #38
derping69 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is able to do this because the US subsidizes their existence. 1. Pharma companies develop drugs with US subsidies and make their profits off US citizens while European countries put price ceilings on their drugs. 2. US essentially defends the world, allowing other countries to spend money elsewhere. http://www.ibtimes.com/how-us-subsidizes-cheap-drugs-europe-...

>US essentially defends the world, allowing other countries to spend money elsewhere. You really think that? I mean come on

I wouldn't say the US defends "the world", but certainly countries like Germany and Japan are getting a pretty good deal from the US taxpayer.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#55

Post by robotresearcher »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #27
9t3h4r3o5w1a4w2 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada doesn't pay half as well as US when it comes to research in STEM. Every country has great talent right now, except US has the money.

If there was money then why are there not enough research positions open?

Not enough for what?

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#56

Post by bussierem »

CorvusCrypto wrote: post #37
holydude wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found this to be pretty much a very biased subjective analogy. I am a european so I hope my "anti-european-rant" will be better accepted but lets see... Europeans often have this illusion of a working social democracy compared to the US suggesting their by default offered benefits to be superior to the offers from the US. That's not the case. In a lot of middle-income-class positions you get most of the things you…

So then I guess my takeaway is then that there's great and poor working expectations and conditions in both areas. I found the US to be a highly negative experience and don't wish the stress on anyone. Being able to go home at night and not have to be on call or work overtime because it's expected is a great relief. I'll take that over a 100k salary any day. And certainly over my middle income job in California. Howe…

Despite the fact that all we can do here is argue using anecdotes, I'll toss mine in - I live in the US, not on the west coast (midwest for me). I make over 100k a year, I have excellent benefits, lots of vacation time, and when I leave work after 8 hours, nobody bothers me.

I do feel incredibly lucky in this situation - I know not everyone gets the stuff I do. But I feel like maybe you might be mistaking "programming in SV/startup community" for "programming in the US". The rest of the country (for the most part) isn't as completely crazy and (sorry to say) idiotic with programming jobs and lifestyles as SV is.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#57

Post by plantain »

dragonwriter wrote: post #45
derping69 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US spends more on military than every Euro country combined. If they are attacked we have to defend them and they know it. They would contribute a relatively insignificant amount if we were ever attacked.

> If they are attacked we have to defend them and they know it. They would contribute a relatively insignificant amount if we were ever attacked. If? In the entire history of NATO, the mutual defense provisions of the treaty have been invoked exactly once , and that in response to an attack on the US, and the non-US NATO contributions were not insignificant.

>the mutual defense provisions of the treaty have been invoked exactly once

that's the point

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#58

Post by dragonwriter »

plantain wrote: post #57
dragonwriter wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they are attacked we have to defend them and they know it. They would contribute a relatively insignificant amount if we were ever attacked. If? In the entire history of NATO, the mutual defense provisions of the treaty have been invoked exactly once , and that in response to an attack on the US, and the non-US NATO contributions were not insignificant.

>the mutual defense provisions of the treaty have been invoked exactly once that's the point

Sure, deterrence is the point of the treaty, but the claim upthread was about the significance of contributions that would be made in the event of an attack, a claim which contradicts the facts of the time when an attack resulting in the mutual defense provisions being invoked actually occurred.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#59

Post by corporateslave3 »

dv_dt wrote: post #53
rdtsc wrote: post #36

> The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain He got a good offer from his home country. Isn't that a good thing that he gets to go home to his country and contribute there? he fact they can spare $250k for him to buy a house and $1M in grant money says a lot about China. Having been in academia for a bit, it seemed there was an oversupply of PhD in some fields. There are just not going to be enough university teachi…

An oversupply of PhDs or our capitalist system not aligning in a way to advance us in ways that don't model a ROI in three years or less?

No just an oversupply of people that really arent smart enough to push their fields forwards, they are just highly "educated". PHDs at average schools can be done by most people willing to put in long hours, we need to stop conflating these "highly educated" people with actual ingenuity. Capitalism rightly casts them off to the side.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#60

Post by devrandomguy »

vostok wrote: post #43
devrandomguy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the last tree has been cut down, the last fish caught, the last river poisoned, only then will we realize that one cannot eat money. We don't have to pay as well, someone else will always be willing to ravage their own country to beat us at that game. We just have to not screw up the local society and environment as badly as the superpowers.

Sorry, can you flesh this out a little more? I'm not quite grasping how paying academics high wages is ravaging our country.

What I mean, is that it does not really matter that Canada is not the highest paying country in the world, because money is not the only factor in determining where academics choose to live. If we can offer an environment that is conducive to intellectual work (low financial stress, spiritually uplifting environment, a culture of mutual assistance, minimal neurotoxins in the food, water and air, good schools for their kids, freedom of thought and expression, minimal discrimination, no threat of war, etc) then academics will try to come here despite the fact that they won't be as financially wealthy in the global market.

We can offer many of those features simply by leaving the huge local ecosystems intact and accessible, and by avoiding changes that cause parts of the population to become desperate.

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