Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC • Hacker News Board

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#51

Post by curtisblaine » Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #37

jamescostian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and what some call daring, others call scary. One thing many people loved about Node was its openness to everyone. But when a leader of a group shows distaste for CoCs, one can see how that might mean the group's CoC may be threatened. Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. You may still feel just as safe, and that's great for you. But it's not very hard to understand why people a…

What's so special about the Node community then? I've been doing open source work for 15+ years and I don't recall any of the projects I worked on having a CoC. Nor did it ever come up as an issue. I did see aggressive list moderation be abused to distort the technical path of a project though. You talk about a "mass exodus". I find myself skeptical of this claim. If the NodeJS contributors are so dependent on a CoC…

And yes, there are a lot of OS software projects that prospered without a CoC. Linux - coincidentally one of the most famous, successful and long-lived open source projects - is one of them.

(And yes, now they have a CoC, which is not what the perennially-offended camp would like it to be: http://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-linux-camp-conflict-...).

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#52

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #35

syshum wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>responding with snark and condescension Tell me it is not soo... Not snark and condescension.... Why that is the most terribleist thing ever.... it makes me sad that we has a society seem to be reject the concept of Free Speech in favor of speech codes and acceptable Speech with punishment for anyone that does not use the "correct words"

If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. Maybe Node should have a CoC, maybe not, but so long as it has one, t…

[deleted]

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#53

Post by AaronFriel » Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #46

AaronFriel wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's how democratic systems function. If Congress passed laws by anonymous vote, individual voters would have no way of knowing if their representative is undermining their will. Likewise, members on the TSC likely represent constituent interests (or I would hope they do).

This isn't a democratic system. My understanding of how it's organized is that it's more of a politburo. Election of a new member, or eviction of an existing one, is done by existing membership and there's no public voting to elect any of the members. I see nothing wrong with having a private vote for something as sensitive as kicking someone out. It's no different than keeping jury deliberations private.

Hm. Perhaps you're right. I think it's fair for people to wonder this question aloud without being thought "scary", though, don't you?

I mean, from the perspective of say, folks that feel they were harassed (hypothetically), they would want to know who they should feel comfortable expressing their concerns to in the future, and who is or is not sympathetic to those concerns. Private votes that don't align with public behavior would also be concerning, and private votes encourage deceptive acts.

For what it's worth, when Congress votes to censure, impeach, or remove, these are public votes. I don't think the jury analogy is quite apt, as the people voting were not selected in that manner. Is that fair?

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#54

Post by jamescostian » Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #37

jamescostian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and what some call daring, others call scary. One thing many people loved about Node was its openness to everyone. But when a leader of a group shows distaste for CoCs, one can see how that might mean the group's CoC may be threatened. Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. You may still feel just as safe, and that's great for you. But it's not very hard to understand why people a…

What's so special about the Node community then? I've been doing open source work for 15+ years and I don't recall any of the projects I worked on having a CoC. Nor did it ever come up as an issue. I did see aggressive list moderation be abused to distort the technical path of a project though. You talk about a "mass exodus". I find myself skeptical of this claim. If the NodeJS contributors are so dependent on a CoC…

> I don't recall any of the projects I worked on having a CoC [...] I did see aggressive list moderation be abused

Right, no CoC, just random moderators who abused their power. I don't see how that's a good thing. I think having a CoC can limit the explicit powers given to moderators so that moderators can only moderate very bad behavior like X, Y, and Z, but not A, B, and C. Of course, this depends on moderators being held to the CoC (i.e. if a moderator doesn't follow the CoC, you make it clear that's not OK so they aren't "abusive" again), and it depends on X, Y, and Z being very carefully deliberated.

> You talk about a "mass exodus". I find myself skeptical of this claim

Visit Twitter and look at Node's "thought leaders". I'll update this post with some links to tweets in a couple minutes.

> If the NodeJS contributors are so dependent on a CoC then it seems like they went badly wrong somewhere. Somehow other projects thrive without one.

Right, many projects of Node's size thrive without any CoC, they just have moderators following whatever rules the mods deem fit, or they just allow toxicity. If you want to remove toxicity while holding mods accountable, some sort of CoC is the way to go.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#55

Post by peoplewindow » Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

AaronFriel wrote: post #48

peoplewindow wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so special about the Node community then? I've been doing open source work for 15+ years and I don't recall any of the projects I worked on having a CoC. Nor did it ever come up as an issue. I did see aggressive list moderation be abused to distort the technical path of a project though. You talk about a "mass exodus". I find myself skeptical of this claim. If the NodeJS contributors are so dependent on a CoC…

The culture has changed, and many projects have codes of conducts now. Could you cite evidence of aggressive list moderation being abused to distort the technical path of a project? Is the project in question the Node.js project, or another?

It wasn't node.js, I have never contributed to node.js

The project is fairly well known to have serious issues with censorship of community forums and moderation. I don't wish to name it here because this is my anonymous account.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#56

Post by drostie » Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #37

jamescostian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and what some call daring, others call scary. One thing many people loved about Node was its openness to everyone. But when a leader of a group shows distaste for CoCs, one can see how that might mean the group's CoC may be threatened. Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. You may still feel just as safe, and that's great for you. But it's not very hard to understand why people a…

What's so special about the Node community then? I've been doing open source work for 15+ years and I don't recall any of the projects I worked on having a CoC. Nor did it ever come up as an issue. I did see aggressive list moderation be abused to distort the technical path of a project though. You talk about a "mass exodus". I find myself skeptical of this claim. If the NodeJS contributors are so dependent on a CoC…

I mean, Node.js has made this particular choice that they're going to believe in CoCs; other projects can of course choose not to: but they chose to and that's what the Node.js technical community is publicly about. That is their choice, and it might not be your choice.

It does have an effect on the social culture that's touched by that CoC, and you might like or dislike that effect. You might also have been totally distanced from this so as someone who is an outsider who has met a bunch of these people, let me say that in my personal interactions with these folks, Node.js has been more friendly to LGBT folks, issues of accessibility for the hearing and sight impaired, people with mental health issues like depression, people of color, women, and nonbinary folks, than just about any other community I have ever met. Meanwhile they have never come across as any of those alt-right buzzwords -- as "social justice warriors" or "man-hating" or "white-shaming" or anything; I have never felt unwelcome personally as a white American man.

Someone on the TSC has been anti-(what-the-community-is-about), and is actively apologizing for CoC enforcement and saying mean things which is discouraging others from participating in Node.js, and the technical community had a vote to censor him. They voted not to, and now someone for whom those community values are important has quit the TSC because they didn't support this decision.

I feel like everybody's rushing to see everyone else's choices as invalid but these are all valid private decisions. That community is allowed to decide that it likes this culture that its CoCs create, Rod is allowed to decide that he does not like it, the TSC is allowed to vote that Rod's dislike is not enough to kick him off the committee, and Myles is allowed to decide that this TSC support of this guy who doesn't like this culture is enough for him to no longer want to be part of the TSC.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#57

Post by ebola1717 » Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

strictnein wrote: post #34

The unredacted details still feel like they're missing something: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.co... "...Rod’s first action was to apologize to a contributor who had been repeatedly moderated. Rod did not discuss the issue with other members of the CTC/TSC first. The result undermined the moderation process as it was occurring" "Rod did not moderate himself when asked by another foundatio…

What do you think you're missing? He undermined the processes he's meant to support, which sends a mixed message about the org's commitment to its Code of Conduct, and in fact his behavior undermined its authority. In addition, he explicitly violated some policies.

Out of his 13 peers (other Node TSC members), 4 felt strongly enough about this that they have resigned.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#58

Post by root_axis » Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

jamescostian wrote: post #44

root_axis wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. I strongly disagree with this language. I support CoCs because I feel explicitly spelling out consequences for harassment allows for the unambiguous rejection of toxic behavior which creates a welcoming environment for new or otherwise anxious contributors... but nothing about CoC affects an individual's personal safety and using that type of hy…

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that CoCs magically shield and help people. I simply meant that having a CoC and then removing it or ignoring it will make people feel like there aren't any "consequences for harassment" as you put it. When a CoC is removed or ignored, it makes people feel like there isn't any "unambiguous rejection of toxic behavior", so people don't feel like they're in a "welcoming environment for new…

I got pedantic over the "safety" language but we're definitely in agreement.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#59

Post by jamescostian » Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

curtisblaine wrote: post #47

peoplewindow wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's so special about the Node community then? I've been doing open source work for 15+ years and I don't recall any of the projects I worked on having a CoC. Nor did it ever come up as an issue. I did see aggressive list moderation be abused to distort the technical path of a project though. You talk about a "mass exodus". I find myself skeptical of this claim. If the NodeJS contributors are so dependent on a CoC…

"mass exodus" = exaggerated figure to create the impression of a crisis in an otherwise healthy community, in order to increase the drama.

Visit Twitter and look at Node's "thought leaders" and you'll see those words weren't just made up for fun and drama

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#60

Post by dvdhnt » Tue, Aug 22, 2017, 3:48 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #16

curtisblaine wrote: post #12

So he dared to be in favour of anti-CoC article in one of his Twitter posts and thus unleashed the SJW brigade? What an heinous crime.

I think that's an uncharitable reading. It's one thing to be anti-CoC. It's another thing to be anti-CoC when you're on a committee whose job is to maintain and enforce the CoC. There's nothing dishonorable about saying "I don't think I agree with the goals of the job that I am doing, so I will let someone else do it," but he didn't do that. It's sort of like going to work for customs while being a strong believer in…

I disagree and find your argument convenient.

It's like saying that once you're elected to congress, you must vote along party lines no matter your personal convictions because "reasons".

We see how well that's working out for America, don't we?