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Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

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Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#41

Post by AaronFriel »

I think that everyone would be well served by stepping back from this and thinking carefully about commenting, before inserting snark and derision at either side.

I see a number of comments that trot out a lot of tired "anti-SJW" talking points, and these do not add to the dialogue and only create unnecessary animosity. I didn't see any negativity on the "pro-SJW" side yet - the responses to the former seem calm but are being downvoted - though I would advise the same.

If your immediate reaction went to taking some sort of partisan stance on the issue, either for or against this decision by the author Myles Borins, or by the TSC's vote, or by Rod Vagg, then I urge you: please step back, psychologically, from this. Reflect on your thoughts before you resort to believing that any of these folks are part of your in group or not and basing your judgment on that quality, as opposed to the facts, which it appears few of us have.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#42

Post by geofft »

curtisblaine wrote: post #36
geofft wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an uncharitable reading. It's one thing to be anti-CoC. It's another thing to be anti-CoC when you're on a committee whose job is to maintain and enforce the CoC. There's nothing dishonorable about saying "I don't think I agree with the goals of the job that I am doing, so I will let someone else do it," but he didn't do that. It's sort of like going to work for customs while being a strong believer in…

Wait, he's a member of the Technical Steering Committee, which is a group "of key Collaborators who have demonstrated both technical expertise critical to the ongoing maintenance and evolution of the project and a long term commitment to driving the project and community forward"[1], not "a committee whose job is to maintain and enforce the CoC", as you put it. It's not inconceivable that an member of such a group co…

The committee has lots of jobs, yes. One of them is the maintaining and enforcing the Code of Conduct:

https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/blob/master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md

I think it's totally fine for a member of the group to disagree privately with the decided goals of the group, whether this is "CoCs are good" or "this promises spec is good" or whatever, and recuse themselves from that goal and contribute productively to other goals. But that's different from actively undermining the group's decision, which is (I think) what is happening here.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#43

Post by cjslep »

syshum wrote: post #18
fixermark wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... or he committed the cardinal sin of questioning the Code of Conduct, and when challenged on it, responding with snark and condescension, demonstrating the need in the community for a Code of Conduct.

>>responding with snark and condescension Tell me it is not soo... Not snark and condescension.... Why that is the most terribleist thing ever.... it makes me sad that we has a society seem to be reject the concept of Free Speech in favor of speech codes and acceptable Speech with punishment for anyone that does not use the "correct words"

Isn't the entire point of a Code of Conduct to restrict speech and behavior? Those who are Free-Speech extremists should be staying away from CoCs anyway.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#44

Post by jamescostian »

root_axis wrote: post #27
jamescostian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and what some call daring, others call scary. One thing many people loved about Node was its openness to everyone. But when a leader of a group shows distaste for CoCs, one can see how that might mean the group's CoC may be threatened. Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. You may still feel just as safe, and that's great for you. But it's not very hard to understand why people a…

> Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. I strongly disagree with this language. I support CoCs because I feel explicitly spelling out consequences for harassment allows for the unambiguous rejection of toxic behavior which creates a welcoming environment for new or otherwise anxious contributors... but nothing about CoC affects an individual's personal safety and using that type of hy…

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that CoCs magically shield and help people. I simply meant that having a CoC and then removing it or ignoring it will make people feel like there aren't any "consequences for harassment" as you put it. When a CoC is removed or ignored, it makes people feel like there isn't any "unambiguous rejection of toxic behavior", so people don't feel like they're in a "welcoming environment for new or otherwise anxious contributors"

Your wording is definitely better than mine, but I hope that doesn't detract from my point

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#45

Post by syshum »

jamescostian wrote: post #31
syshum wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems he committed the cardinal sin of expressing support for Free Speech and questioning some aspects of Codes of Conduct. One can not even question the codes of conduct, they are written on stone and are beyond criticism and questioning...

Society has been telling people to shut up for a very, very long time. Stepping down from a position because you disagree with someone != "Free Speech" If you really think disagreeing with someone and expressing it constitutes as limiting Free Speech, then aren't you limiting Free Speech right now?

>>Society has been telling people to shut up for a very, very long time.

Does not make it right when it occurs

>Stepping down from a position because you disagree with someone != "Free Speech"

Attempting to, or actually forcing someone out of a project on the basis they liked a article on the web you believe they should not have liked, then responded with "incorrect words" is in fact a Free Speech issue

>If you really think disagreeing with someone and expressing it constitutes as limiting Free Speech, then aren't you limiting Free Speech right now?

where did I say that?

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#46

Post by koolba »

AaronFriel wrote: post #26
koolba wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lines like this from your first link are scary: > Do Meeting Notes or a recording of the TSC vote exist? Is it known who voted what and who abstained? My interpretation is that it's asking, " Who's against us? Let's call them out... "

Yes, that's how democratic systems function. If Congress passed laws by anonymous vote, individual voters would have no way of knowing if their representative is undermining their will. Likewise, members on the TSC likely represent constituent interests (or I would hope they do).

This isn't a democratic system. My understanding of how it's organized is that it's more of a politburo.

Election of a new member, or eviction of an existing one, is done by existing membership and there's no public voting to elect any of the members.

I see nothing wrong with having a private vote for something as sensitive as kicking someone out. It's no different than keeping jury deliberations private.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#47

Post by curtisblaine »

peoplewindow wrote: post #37
jamescostian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and what some call daring, others call scary. One thing many people loved about Node was its openness to everyone. But when a leader of a group shows distaste for CoCs, one can see how that might mean the group's CoC may be threatened. Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. You may still feel just as safe, and that's great for you. But it's not very hard to understand why people a…

What's so special about the Node community then? I've been doing open source work for 15+ years and I don't recall any of the projects I worked on having a CoC. Nor did it ever come up as an issue. I did see aggressive list moderation be abused to distort the technical path of a project though. You talk about a "mass exodus". I find myself skeptical of this claim. If the NodeJS contributors are so dependent on a CoC…

"mass exodus" = exaggerated figure to create the impression of a crisis in an otherwise healthy community, in order to increase the drama.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#48

Post by AaronFriel »

peoplewindow wrote: post #37
jamescostian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and what some call daring, others call scary. One thing many people loved about Node was its openness to everyone. But when a leader of a group shows distaste for CoCs, one can see how that might mean the group's CoC may be threatened. Without CoCs, many people in the Node community wouldn't feel as safe. You may still feel just as safe, and that's great for you. But it's not very hard to understand why people a…

What's so special about the Node community then? I've been doing open source work for 15+ years and I don't recall any of the projects I worked on having a CoC. Nor did it ever come up as an issue. I did see aggressive list moderation be abused to distort the technical path of a project though. You talk about a "mass exodus". I find myself skeptical of this claim. If the NodeJS contributors are so dependent on a CoC…

The culture has changed, and many projects have codes of conducts now.

Could you cite evidence of aggressive list moderation being abused to distort the technical path of a project? Is the project in question the Node.js project, or another?

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#49

Post by peoplewindow »

strictnein wrote: post #34

The unredacted details still feel like they're missing something: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.co... "...Rod’s first action was to apologize to a contributor who had been repeatedly moderated. Rod did not discuss the issue with other members of the CTC/TSC first. The result undermined the moderation process as it was occurring" "Rod did not moderate himself when asked by another foundatio…

I'm scan reading the article and don't see what's so inflammatory about it either.

It's about the problem of campus censorship and lack of free speech in universities. It starts by suggesting that Isaac Newton would have been pushed out of modern universities, if zapped forward in time, due to his mental issues and eccentric beliefs about non-gravity related topics.

Then it goes on to argue that there's a thing called "neuro-diversity" and universities are only catering to the "neuro-typical". The "neuro-divergent" should stand up for their rights against oppression. This seems like a rather forced way to try and cast what campus politics is doing as discrimination in the hope that the people enforcing speech codes will think again.

It's kind of an odd thesis - I can see where the author is going with that, not sure I agree but I don't clearly disagree either. I just doubt it's a good argument.

Regardless, the only people who could describe this as inflammatory are people on the war path, who want to expel anyone who isn't 110% committed to their ideology of punishing speech that isn't sufficiently "progressive". Seems like another day, another Damore to me.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#50

Post by syshum »

geofft wrote: post #35
syshum wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>responding with snark and condescension Tell me it is not soo... Not snark and condescension.... Why that is the most terribleist thing ever.... it makes me sad that we has a society seem to be reject the concept of Free Speech in favor of speech codes and acceptable Speech with punishment for anyone that does not use the "correct words"

If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words. This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct. Maybe Node should have a CoC, maybe not, but so long as it has one, t…

>>If I go to an interview for a Python developer position, and I say "I think Python is a stupid language and nobody should use it," and I don't get the job, it would be ridiculous for anyone to say that I got punished for not using the correct words.

This is a terrible analogy and in no way related to the topic at hand. I am not even going to bother to refute it as it should be obvious as to why this analogy is flawed

>>This is the same thing. The Node.js TSC is the body that maintains and enforces the Code of Conduct.

the TSC seems to believe this was not a violation, and upon reading what the person is accused of, and the CoC I agree it is not a violation of their codes.

Now it seems some in the project want to adopt even more restrictive CoC to further police any members actions even well beyond anything that is even connected with Node Development, that is insane

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