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Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

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Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#711
I for one believe James Damore wasn't fired for his views on women, but Google fired him because he was a PR problem and that could affect their business/financial bottom line. Google probably understands the user base and decided they would rather not displease women (bigger group) compared to conservatives.

My analysis adds up to what James Damore had to say as to what happened in a WSJ article. He said his memo didn't bother many people until it was leaked, and the google HR got many complaints from the outside world.

I think the google management fired him not because of his view, nor were they worried that he questioned google's purported wasteful spending on diversity programs (which for Google is drop in the bucket if it is effective...if it is not effective I dont think they care, it makes them look good).

But google fired James because they thought he was bad for business (consumer base).

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#712

I for one believe James Damore wasn't fired for his views on women, but Google fired him because he was a PR problem and that could affect their business/financial bottom line. Google probably understands the user base and decided they would rather not displease women (bigger group) compared to conservatives. My analysis adds up to what James Damore had to say as to what happened in a WSJ article. He said his memo di…

If thst were true, why didn't google negotiate a gag agreement (using a few million $$$, cheap for them) with Damore to make this just go away? The fact that they didn't take the easy way out makes me think that they didn't fire him for business reasons.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#713

I for one believe James Damore wasn't fired for his views on women, but Google fired him because he was a PR problem and that could affect their business/financial bottom line. Google probably understands the user base and decided they would rather not displease women (bigger group) compared to conservatives. My analysis adds up to what James Damore had to say as to what happened in a WSJ article. He said his memo di…

[deleted]

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#714
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets assume that we're in an alternative universe where the document was never leaked. The document still did harm. Just read this quote from the posted article- > When I walk into my job at a tech company, how do I know which of my colleagues thinks I’m an outlier among women versus someone who was hired because I’m female that doesn’t deserve the job they have? How do I prove myself to people one way or another? Th…

Quoted argument doesn't make sense. If the hiring standards are the same for women an men then you know that any women at the company is as qualified as any men at least until you get to know more about them, there is just less of them - no reason to prove anything. If on the other hand any kind of affirmative action is in place then you would be right to assume average women is less qualified than an average man bec…

If what you say is true then in workplaces without affirmative action programs we should not expect to find any workers who thinks the women that work there are less qualified than the men who work there. (Because the "cause", affirmative action, is not in place.)

Do you really think that is the case?

> The place to take action is in early schooling to get more women interested in tech or give them more opportunities to get involved not in hiring more of them from already smaller job seekers pool.

Yes, this is what many of Google's diversity programs are intended to do.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#715
post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you can't, because there isn't evidence that biological differences cause people to choose different careers. Why would put forth a theory that is opposed to a company's values of equality if you don't have proof? Most evidence points to socialized factors, not biological ones. If Damore really cares about this issue, he should study biology and make his case there. He will do more to move the debate forward from…

"Most evidence points to socialized factors, not biological ones." I'm loathe to post in discussions like this because it's so useless, but points like this make me wonder if I'm just living on a different planet. Do you have children? Of different genders? Because literally every parent I know who has both boys and girls has the simple, non-ideologically-biased experience that boys and girls are vastly different, ev…

I have a similar experience with my children. From an extremely early age, my daughter has "tucked in" toys to bed, rocked them to sleep, etc. She was NOT taught to do this, but just did this as play. My sons can't seem to find a toy that cannot be used as a sword or a gun, to my wife's constant annoyance.

Even with the SAME toys, they are used very differently. For example, all of my kids play minecraft. My daughter loves to build houses with kitchens and bathrooms, bake, and invite people into her house for dinners and parties. My sons fight the monsters, build elaborate towers and castles, and play with explosives.

This image summarizes my experience: http://imgur.com/AT2Ak

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#716
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think one thing that struck me from the linked article was the point that the memo wasn't structured to invite discussion. It wasn't "let's have a chat", it was "here's an evidence bomb of how you're all wrong". I think advancing points is fine, but if you're after productive discussion rather than an adversarial debate, you need to proactively invite discussion. And if an adversarial debate was what he was after,…

I read the full memo ( https://medium.com/@Cernovich/full-james-damore-memo-uncenso... ) and it didn't seem like that at all. Saying that discrimination exists but differences in gender representation aren't necessarily caused by discrimination didn't seem like 'you're all wrong', not do the 'suggestions' seem like something someone writing authoritatively would make. Not a female engineer so appreciate I may be miss…

The first page or so is not about gender diversity, but about "Left biases" and "Right biases" and the statement that "the media, and Google lean left".

He then follows with "Google's left bias has created a politically correct monoculture".

So the difference is between these two statements:

a. I believe X, and

b. You are all leftists. Leftists believe Y. Y is wrong. The answer is actually X.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be completely lost on a lot of HN people that Damore's memo was not very scientific at all for the subject matter he was tackling. It was written in a certain intellectual language that often provides a veneer of authority for those who agree with his conclusions and lack the domain knowledge to understand the nuances of why he's wrong. But a lot of these "bio-truth" type of arguments do the same thing. G…

>>All it would have taken was for him to run the essay past a couple of people with solid domain expertise, and they would have pointed out the dozens and dozens of problems with his assertions, reasoning and perspective. I don't think this squares with truth. There is at least one PH.D psychologist who mentioned the memo was generally correct.

The people he cited told reporters they disagree with his interpretations of their research. There's a wired article going around with direct quotes but I'm mobile and can't find it easily.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#718
In support of workplaces in which all employees know and feel the company is doing what it can feasibly to support them, regardless of who they are. I'm a man, I love women, and I'm a feminist.

So, despite my thought that it was utterly moronic for someone at Google to write out his beliefs in such a way that he would certainly get fired, unless he plans to go into politics, I'd like to respond to something one of the female interviewees stated in this interview:

"I also think that society should have room for the discussion of ideas that are not in step with what is considered acceptable at a given time. There is, of course, a difference between an unfounded opinion and the pursuit of scientific truth, but logically, we should not avoid pursuing a scientific truth for fear that the answer will not be aligned with currently accepted dogmas."

While these statements are incredibly close to my own, I call bullshit.

The pursuit of "scientific truth" in such a way to not be aligned with accepted dogmas is equivalent to having unfounded opinions in the sense that "scientific truth" itself is a lie, and has been so since the first "truth" was found to be "false".

Beliefs attributed to scientific work are beliefs, and modern science evolved from philosophers who established "truths" based on speculation.

To add to that, even what's been established is suspect, even if it were true once. Our minds believe things to be true from past experience that may not align with recorded history. People made mistakes when recording history. Therefore, according to "scientific truth" (which itself may be unwise!), we cannot assume everything we believe to be true to be true.

How then could the pursuit of a truth that could easily become a lie later any different than unfounded opinion or accepting dogma?

I'm considering a Paleo Diet now; that's full circle from our beginning.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#719
post #679
post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please keep ideological talking points off HN. If you have a substantive point to make, make it thoughtfully; otherwise please don't comment until you do.

The onus is on you to disprove them, they made no irrational claims. If you have some problem with any of their concepts, say so. Your attack on whether his comment is 'thoughtful' or not is weak.

As a moderator here I'm commenting purely procedurally. The comment breaks the HN guidelines and when people do that we ask them not to.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#720

Frances: ...if I remain silent, that silence could be mistaken for agreement. I should not be forced into that kind of debate at work. And then Frances: ...I’m also disappointed that the men I know, including most of my male colleagues, remained silent on the topic. Frances: ...Many powerful men in Silicon Valley have huge bases of social media followers. By remaining silent on this topic or tweeting support for Damo…

This section struck out to me too.

what I realized is that I am older, more world wary and far more cynical about anyone looking out for me than your average young millennial.

I think the dividing line is in that cynicism. I have never felt like anyone looked out for me.

"How do I prove myself to people one way or another?"

I have stopped trying to prove myself. I do what I think is right and am very wary of external validation that is not based on engineering data. Asking how you prove yourself seems very foreign. You always risk being wrong. You always risk being cast out.

If young social activists were less strident about how society stacks the deck for all white people- even the ones who have been abused, who had a shitty childhood, who have had bad relationships, who are suffering from depression or chemical abuse or other problems, then I think we'd stop running into this very boring and predictable conflict.

Everyone is suffering on some level. Stop talking about white men like we've never experienced pain.

I do think the memo was foundationally stupid. Compassion is needed on all sides.

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