Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#21

Post by hedgew » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

Many of the more reasonable criticisms of the memo say that it wasn't written well enough; it could've been more considerate, it should have used better language, or better presentation. In this particular link, Scott Alexander is used as an example of better writing, and he certainly is one of the best and most persuasive modern writers I've found. However, I can not imagine ever matching his talent and output, even if I practiced for years to try and catch up.

I do not think that anyone's ability to write should disbar them from discussion. We can not expect perfection from others. Instead we should try to understand them as human beings, and interpret them with generosity and kindness.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#22

Post by AlexCoventry » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #2

with the recognition that gender and sex aren’t binary. Is there a biological basis for this? I do not want "Gender Studies" references. I want real BIOLOGICAL, you know code mother nature put in you.

A good example is Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH), which Slate Star Codex has made so much of in this debate. Excess androgens from CAH can lead to ambiguous genitalia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congenital_adrenal_hyperplasia...

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#23

Post by tanilama » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #2

with the recognition that gender and sex aren’t binary. Is there a biological basis for this? I do not want "Gender Studies" references. I want real BIOLOGICAL, you know code mother nature put in you.

You can have XXY/XYY/XXX chromosomes, and appear normal though.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#24

Post by Retric » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #2

with the recognition that gender and sex aren’t binary. Is there a biological basis for this? I do not want "Gender Studies" references. I want real BIOLOGICAL, you know code mother nature put in you.

Biology get's odd when you start looking at 0.01% cases.

Some people have both sets of reproductive organs at birth. Others lack many such structures which is arguably just sterility but in some cases no gender is closer to the truth.

Genetically you have XX (female), XY (male) but also XXY or XXXY. There are even Chimera where you can have both male (XX) and female (XY) cells in the same body.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#25

Post by jasonwatkinspdx » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 7:57 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #2

with the recognition that gender and sex aren’t binary. Is there a biological basis for this? I do not want "Gender Studies" references. I want real BIOLOGICAL, you know code mother nature put in you.

It's hard not to interpret this as a dishonest question with how you've phrased it and in particular your last sentence.

This is a question you can answer for yourself trivially by googling the relevant terms as well as learning about intersex individuals.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#26

Post by tedivm » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 7:58 PM UTC

rpiguy wrote: post #6

I really enjoyed the well reasoned discussion. I think a lot more constructive dialog is happening now that people have calmed down. Of all the sentiments expressed in the article, I mainly disagree with the comment that Damore did the company harm. He posted his thoughts on an internal discussion board and someone else leaked this internal document to the press. The leaker did harm to Google not Damore. In fact, I t…

Lets assume that we're in an alternative universe where the document was never leaked.

The document still did harm. Just read this quote from the posted article-

> When I walk into my job at a tech company, how do I know which of my colleagues thinks I’m an outlier among women versus someone who was hired because I’m female that doesn’t deserve the job they have? How do I prove myself to people one way or another? The additional mental and emotional burden on me just to do my job is not negligible at all, and it’s also a pretty crappy way to start every day thinking: “Will the team/manager/VC I talk with today realize I’m qualified, or will they be making stereotypical assumptions about my abilities and therefore make it harder for me to do my job?” To me, that absolutely makes for a hostile work environment, and it’s an unequal burden my male coworkers don’t have to deal with every day.

That quote wasn't caused by this going public in the way it did, it was caused by it being posted in the first place. There is real harm done if women who work at a company don't feel they are welcome there.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#27

Post by jonny_eh » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 7:58 PM UTC

rpiguy wrote: post #6

I really enjoyed the well reasoned discussion. I think a lot more constructive dialog is happening now that people have calmed down. Of all the sentiments expressed in the article, I mainly disagree with the comment that Damore did the company harm. He posted his thoughts on an internal discussion board and someone else leaked this internal document to the press. The leaker did harm to Google not Damore. In fact, I t…

Everything you write at a company should be assumed may end up printed on the froom page of the NY Times.

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#28

Post by ovao » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 7:58 PM UTC

sremani wrote: post #2

with the recognition that gender and sex aren’t binary. Is there a biological basis for this? I do not want "Gender Studies" references. I want real BIOLOGICAL, you know code mother nature put in you.

I'm not going to comment on gender, but doesn't hermaphroditism result a non-binary classification of sex?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#29

Post by danharaj » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 7:59 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #20

danharaj wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Hijra have existed for millenia and now have legal status: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/apr/16/india-third-... There are several cultures that have arisen independently and have had more than two genders. Many of them are still extant today, despite the best effort of colonialists. So that's gender down. Intersex individuals exist. Intersex conditions range from physiological to karyotypes with varian…

Are the numbers of intersex individuals large enough to actually matter? And how many of them are fertile?

It was a question about categories. Are there two categories of gender / sex? The answer is no. These people exist. They have entire lives which are as meaningful as any other. Why wouldn't they matter?

Re: Ask a Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo

#30

Post by trendia » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 7:59 PM UTC

SandersAK wrote: post #14

Google, like all corporate structures is hierarchical. Corporations recognize "success" for employees through promotion. Promotion usually includes higher pay. Men are taught from a young age that they need to "compete" for "success" There is no way to win the game for all players inside corporate hierarchy. If you can't win the game, but wish to remain (or are trapped by your economic situation) you will have pressu…

> Instead of facing the truth: the game is stacked against you, you may just not be that good etc., it is far easier to devise some sort of massive conspiracy or pseudo-science to justify your prejudice.

I suspect that you do not see the irony in this statement.