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As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

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Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#131
post #34

I was in the throes of a brief, doomed romance. I had attended a concert that Saturday night. I answered the question with an account of both. The guys stared blankly. Then silence. Then one of them said: “I built a fiber-channel network in my basement,” and our co-workers fell all over themselves asking him to describe every step in loving detail. At that moment I realized that fundamentally, these are not my people…

> I was never going to like it enough to blow a weekend doing more of it for free.

This is how you get good at it. If you don't like it as a hobby, maybe it's not a good job fit for you.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#132
post #85
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you absolutely sure you arent just convincing yourself? As someone who does actually love all this stuff so much that work doesnt start and hobby doesnt really stop... We meet and work with people like you all the time. We like the diversity. There are many ways to contribute to the end result and any smart company hires both of us. But your resentment is mean spirited. Get over yourself. We are not driving any o…

Absolutely nobody has argued that people who code in their spare time should be fired. That's something you introduced, pointlessly and disruptively, to the thread. What a tire fire all these threads are. And people are surprised they get flagged!

You've been practicing some serious selective reading in these threads.

When it's the Enemy, you seem eager to read between the lines for dark intent, but when an Ally says something like "poor at building products", "this sort of person is not an asset" and "having too many of them around just drives others away" you demand a precise, literal reading that somehow doesn't conclude that this is a call to fire, or not hire, the type of person described.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#133
> James Damore should probably have used fewer words with high negative emotional indices, when more neutral ones were available. But he was basically making the same point that I am: that women seem to have less interest in working with inanimate objects, and that ignoring this is going to lead to a lot of useless or even counterproductive diversity initiatives.

Hard to take this piece seriously. I've worked in tech and in journalism. Women are decently-represented in investigative journalism [0], and being successful in that means being highly motivated to work, 7 days a week for long hours, with "inanimate objects" such as documents, legal codes, and Lexis-Nexis, e.g. Jane Mayer [1] and Lucy Morgan [2]. Perhaps the reason why the OP can't recall of many women at her workplace building fiber-channel networks in their basement over the weekend is that:

1) It's rare even for men to do that. I went through engineering school; there were students like that, some of whom would later go on to excel. But many students such as myself weren't as obsessive yet were able to be successful and confident too.

2) There weren't many women in her workplace period.

Maybe the implication is that women can get obsessed with something like journalism because it's not the "inanimate objects" they're obsessed with, but the real-life people who are impacted. OK. I don't work at Google but I imagine that is a quality they would want in their workforce if they hope to make their computing services integral and ubiquitous to human existence.

I can identify with the OP's selection-bias. As a Vietnamese-American, I've gotten a few surprised responses from other Vietnamese about being a journalist. Part of that may be because there aren't many Vietnamese relative to other ethnic groups in America. And to a relatively poor ethnic group, a poor-paying field like journalism isn't super attractive to Vietnamese immigrant parents. There aren't a ton of (well-known) Vietnamese journalist heroes to emulate either; none so far have won a Pulitzer (in editorial journalism, at least). But why I became interested in journalist is easy: my high school had a great program, and it was fun.

From my vantage point, the idea that women could succeed and enjoy tech is far less hypothetical. For starters, women are represented well in STEM (just not computer science), and tech is a highly lucrative field today. But more importantly, unlike aspiring Vietnamese-American journalists, women have actual heroes and paragons of the field to look-up to. Not just the long-dead, such as Ada Lovelace and Admiral Grace Hopper. The engineer who (among many other huge accomplishments) came up with the very concept of "software engineering" was a woman [3].

I know the memo author's and the OP's point is not that women can't at all exceed in engineering. But the situation isn't that women have sometimes done well with computers, like a few WNBA players might be able to give NBA players a tough challenge. The situation with computers is that women have been pioneers. The memo's author does not provide sufficient evidence for us to believe that biological factors are what make engineering unappealing to women. So efforts to make engineering appealing to women are not just done out of an obligatory guilt-trip, but could be essential to a company's continued success and innovation.

[0] http://www.theinvestigativefund.org/blog/1761/investigative_...

[1] http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2010/08/30/covert-operatio...

[2] http://archives.cjr.org/united_states_project/lucy_morgan_in...

[3] https://medium.com/@verne/margaret-hamilton-the-engineer-who...

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because there also can be a feedback effect from people preferring fields with more people of their own gender No, that would mean that women in business, architecture, physical sciences, etc. would not have increased. The fact that women in CS followed closely several other fields (business, architecture, etc.) means that % of women already on the field is not relevant. The fact that other fields that use skills s…

No it doesn't, because they're different fields, some of which are pre-med related. And amidst programming itself there's different behaviors. Way more men design their own programming languages.

Maybe worth looking at the proportions in other countries too, "pre-med" isn't the first step to becoming a doctor worldwide. I gather that Law differs a fair bit too.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#135
post #13

I have never seen any career that is so deeply tied to a certain culture as CS/SWE and a certain culture that I'll call X, to avoid any discussions on naming and so on. I see far more diversity in tastes and interests in most other majors and careers, while in CS/SWE, X seems to hold a monopoly. CS/SWE goes far beyond a career, usually becoming close to a religion or way of life. I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or mos…

> I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby

Doctors read through medical literature all the time.

I know plumbers who have fully decked out their house with incredible custom setups (e.g. hydronically heated walls), mechanics who work on their own cars on the weekend, contractors who live in fabulous homes they built themselves, and artists who work on their own projects during the weekend.

At the same time, many of my coworkers have interests outside of technology. It varies. A lot.

> (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more)

Hiking, sailing, martial arts, world travel, cooking, beer, animal rehabilitation.

> (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more),

Sci-fi and Fantasy movies have been mainstream for some time, and my non-engineering friends get together for board games as often as my engineering friends. Video games are played by 49% of Americans (Pew), equally split between men and women.

I've known men and women who have had cultural problems fitting into their teams, engineering and non-engineering.

Also in regards to the article, music is even worse than politics for % chance of finding agreement, if I brought up the latest \m/ concert I went to, I'd find maybe a couple of people in total who'd want to talk about it at my office! It'd be "how was it? Nice, ok, cool."

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#136
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law and medicine are high status jobs, with a lot of people interactions. Yes, programmers have meetings. Not the same level of interaction as medicine, by a long stretch. There are many TV shows glorifying medicine and law. How many TV shows glorify the job of a programmer? How would you make a TV show glorifying the job of a programmer?

So why do young men study CS in college if programmers aren't glorified? Not to mention that being a "nerd" and "computer whiz" has never been a culturally attractive label, no matter what people might say today.

I don't agree with this, but the implication seems to be that women/girls are shallower? Is there some other word to characterize "more likely to make major life decisions based on what the TV says"?

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#137
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't, because they're different fields, some of which are pre-med related. And amidst programming itself there's different behaviors. Way more men design their own programming languages.

Maybe worth looking at the proportions in other countries too, "pre-med" isn't the first step to becoming a doctor worldwide. I gather that Law differs a fair bit too.

I bet that would not be useful because the cultural effects seem to be much different in magnitude even between European countries.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#139
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law and medicine are high status jobs, with a lot of people interactions. Yes, programmers have meetings. Not the same level of interaction as medicine, by a long stretch. There are many TV shows glorifying medicine and law. How many TV shows glorify the job of a programmer? How would you make a TV show glorifying the job of a programmer?

So why do young men study CS in college if programmers aren't glorified? Not to mention that being a "nerd" and "computer whiz" has never been a culturally attractive label, no matter what people might say today.

Because it's one of the only fields you're virtually guaranteed an an above average salary straight out of undergrad and it's an easier path relative to medicine and law
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