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As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

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Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#81

Post by Boothroid »

gyardley wrote: post #56
xienze wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one said you have to be obsessive, but it helps.

No, it doesn't. It makes you one-dimensional and particularly poor at building products for others unlike yourself. The sooner the tech industry realizes that this sort of person is not an asset and that having too many of them around just drives others away, the better off it'll be.

And there's nothing to stop them starting their own companies or being hired by companies that don't subscribe to the prevailing PC orthodoxy. And with their deep obsessiveness they may well write better software. Or are you saying they should not be allowed to?

That's not how things work.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#82

Post by Mz »

ianai wrote: post #76

I somewhat regret reading this article. She says she realized tech wasn't for her when she realized doing IT in her off-hours was unpalatable. Here's my question: Why? Why doesn't she like working on technical hobbies outside of work? That might prove more interesting. As for myself, her sentiment seems in line with the kids in HS who called my type the nerds/geeks/other term for loser. I also think that's where soci…

She says she realized tech wasn't for her when she realized doing IT in her off-hours was unpalatable. Here's my question: Why?

Because she is actually extremely competitive, something typically thought of as a male trait:

Which meant that I was never going to be as good at that job as the guys around me.

She didn't want a job where she was going to be considered second rate. She wanted to be in a job where she would be "the best" and get accolades for it, etc. She realized she didn't love tech enough to have the biggest bragging rights, so she went someplace where she could outcompete others.

You know, like Bro culture gets accused of being.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#83

Post by Maken »

ucaetano wrote: post #35
zby wrote: post #19

Similar to the diagnosis by Jordan Peterson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eieVE-xFXuo Personally I think it is oversimplification - the thing is that - yes there is a root cause in biology - but than that root cause is multiplied by social circumstances. If there are few women in tech - then it is costly for employers to adjust to them (stuff like adding women sizes t-shirts) - plus it is also cheaper intellectual…

> yes there is a root cause in biology No. Proof: http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel... If there was a root cause in biology, in 1980 there wouldn't be the same % of women in CS as in business, or almost the same as social sciences. Or almost the same as there are women in math/stats today. Something happened in the early 80's. I have a hypothesis for that, tied to the rise of video-games, s…

Sometimes I wonder why it is "natural" that some fields are dominated by females by nearly a 90% but it is worrisome that others are 80% male. I mean, given a more or less equivalent intelligence distribution people needs to end doing something.

Also, the dotcom bubble sure killed CS.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#84

Post by zamalek »

_jgvg wrote: post #13

I have never seen any career that is so deeply tied to a certain culture as CS/SWE and a certain culture that I'll call X, to avoid any discussions on naming and so on. I see far more diversity in tastes and interests in most other majors and careers, while in CS/SWE, X seems to hold a monopoly. CS/SWE goes far beyond a career, usually becoming close to a religion or way of life. I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or mos…

> These are just my own (low-n) observations

Same disclaimer.

I used to be the guy who only did X (from age 8). Spending all my free time doing X impressively improved my ability to do that but only until the day that X became my job. From that day forward, any benefit derived in terms of mastery was vastly overshadowed by fatigue and burnout. The more I participated in X after-hours the worse I became at life in general (X by association).

I used to bring up topics like that at work. I would brag about my weekend/month project to coworkers; the praise made me feel better about my mundane weekend. I honestly loved hearing about weekends that had nothing to do with tech because I wanted that. I do now and I honestly never want to go back to doing weekends of X.

When everyone is done gushing over the stories of the fiber in the basement (you can too and learn something), share your story about your hike up a mountain. You can't claim that people aren't interested in something (even so far as learning themselves) if you haven't actually tested those waters.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#85

Post by tptacek »

ralfn wrote: post #74
gyardley wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't. It makes you one-dimensional and particularly poor at building products for others unlike yourself. The sooner the tech industry realizes that this sort of person is not an asset and that having too many of them around just drives others away, the better off it'll be.

Are you absolutely sure you arent just convincing yourself? As someone who does actually love all this stuff so much that work doesnt start and hobby doesnt really stop... We meet and work with people like you all the time. We like the diversity. There are many ways to contribute to the end result and any smart company hires both of us. But your resentment is mean spirited. Get over yourself. We are not driving any o…

Absolutely nobody has argued that people who code in their spare time should be fired. That's something you introduced, pointlessly and disruptively, to the thread.

What a tire fire all these threads are. And people are surprised they get flagged!

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#86

Post by account2937858 »

ucaetano wrote: post #75
account2937858 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not proof. It's an observation that needs explaining. Scott Alexander's post[0], which was linked in TFA offers a plausible explanation. > My impression is that there were lots of women in CS in 1980 for the same reason there were lots of Jews in banking in 1800: they were banned from doing anything else. > Computer programming was originally considered sort of a natural outgrowth of being a secretary (remembe…

That explanation doesn't match the chart: There weren't a lot of women in CS. They were growing, just like other fields. And then, suddenly, they stopped growing and started declining.

It did rise most sharply in CS because it was open to women early on when women joined the labor market (previously either holding non-degree jobs or being stay-at-home wives). Once other fields opened up too they left CS for those fields which aligned more with their interests.

Maybe there might be two effects at work here: Women joining a field early that was seen as a female job (computer secretaries) that did not align with their interests while conversely men started to join more when the job became more stereotyped as a "male activity" while at the same time being aligned with their interest.

Contrast the business curve which also saw an early increase but also is more of a people-interest thing, thus did not see a decline.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#87

Post by Boothroid »

xienze wrote: post #5

Great article and hits on what I think is the main difference between men and women: men seem to be far more likely to become obsessive and devote massive amounts of time to hobbies and study. I mean if you're not popular and girls aren't interested in you, what else are you going to do? And spending years being obsessed with computers is naturally going to lead you down a path towards a degree and job in computers,…

I was very popular with girls for about 2 years between 14-16, but was still hugely geeky. The idea that there are lonely men out there that think 'I can't get girls, I'll become a geek instead!' Laughable.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#88

Post by robertlagrant »

tptacek wrote: post #67
jasode wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think what's happening here is pretty simple: the people who have "writing more computer code" as their personal hobby are excited to feel superior to those who don't. Maybe some of that sentiment is happening. That's orthogonal to the point that programmers who enjoy programming as a passion (that's a dangerous word) naturally will prefer hiring programmers who enjoy it beyond the boundaries of a 40-hour job. It'…

Sucks if you're a new parent who codes, doesn't it?

I'm a new parent who codes, and it is difficult, but not impossible. I would note that you keep attempting to analyse (or rather, guess) the emotions of people you disagree with, and it might be better to stay logical and systematic in order to communicate effectively.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#89

Post by stickfigure »

neo4sure wrote: post #11
chrisco255 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She said the harassment came from clients not co-workers.

Yes but the point is she was ok with it. Which is not what a large population of females feel like...

Honestly, how do you want her to feel about it?

You can't sue customers for sexual harassment. Anyone working in a customer-facing position must be willing to put up with poor behavior (of all sorts) on the part of customers; it's pretty much part of the job description. If it gets bad enough you fire the customer, but in the mean time you just get the work done, take their money, and be ok with it. The only thing worse than annoying customers is no customers.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#90

Post by noncoml »

the8472 wrote: post #80
noncoml wrote: post #30

The memo was making the point that because men have more affinity to things than women, Google should not try for a 50/50 balance between men and women. The author here says that she enjoyed her work but left because the predominant male co-workers had affinity to things and couldn't relate with them. If anything the author makes a case for Google's current strategy of striving for 50/50 men women balance, since that…

The google memo argued that altering the job to be more people-focused instead of thing-focused - e.g. more pair programming - would achieve the same goal without what may be seen as affirmative action.

> The google memo argued that altering the job to be more people-focused instead of thing-focused - e.g. more pair programming - would achieve the same goal without what may be seen as affirmative action.

While it did mentioned that, it didn't really argue that. After all this is something that happens after you are in the company.

The main argument was that Google should stop conscious efforts to increase representation of women.

Quoting from "Suggestions":

"we shouldn't try to correct for existing biases"

"Discriminating just to increase the representation of women in tech is as misguided and biased as mandating increases for women’s representation in the homeless, work-related and violent deaths, prisons, and school dropouts."

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