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As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

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Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#111

Post by nyxtom »

I want to refute this notion that you have to work 24/hrs a day, 7 days a week. A lot of company cultures that are like that seem to be much more competitive and tends to favor young single kids ready to pour in late nights. I say this as a male, who is also somewhat young (late 20s), but I'm also married and I have a kid, and I'm a full-time software engineer who works remotely. In other words, I have a life before/after code, and responsibilities to take care that have nothing to do with building a fiber-channel network in my basement because at the moment I don't even have a basement. I think this is actually more indicative of the culture as a whole within a particular company and even its location, not necessarily any gender bias because a lot of people outside that bubble have similar experiences that have nothing to do with gender. That being said, it's just a weekend and sounds like watercooler talk. There are some nights that I feel like I want to hack on something after everyone goes to sleep, there are others where I just want to read a book. Humanity is a spectrum, it would be a shame to try and put people into relative boxes. It's worth noting that if you don't feel like you fit into a company's culture, it doesn't automatically mean you don't fit into the field at all.

STEM is a massively broad set of professions with culture dynamics and social influences that can vary widely from company to location. Let's not assume that one particular bubble like Google Mountain View is indicative of what all companies and professions in STEM look like.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#112

Post by clarky07 »

tptacek wrote: post #85
ralfn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you absolutely sure you arent just convincing yourself? As someone who does actually love all this stuff so much that work doesnt start and hobby doesnt really stop... We meet and work with people like you all the time. We like the diversity. There are many ways to contribute to the end result and any smart company hires both of us. But your resentment is mean spirited. Get over yourself. We are not driving any o…

Absolutely nobody has argued that people who code in their spare time should be fired. That's something you introduced, pointlessly and disruptively, to the thread. What a tire fire all these threads are. And people are surprised they get flagged!

Actually the parent pretty much said that exactly

>No, it doesn't. It makes you one-dimensional and particularly poor at building products for others unlike yourself.

Translation - you are bad at your job

>The sooner the tech industry realizes that this sort of person is not an asset and that having too many of them around just drives others away, the better off it'll be. reply

Translation - we should get rid of these people who are not assets

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#113

Post by bjt »

Mz wrote: post #78
evolve2017 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you in part - I find the biological explanations very unsatisfying given the many peculiar things we are socialized to do (proms, engagement proposals, baby showers, amongst many others, likely do not find their origins in our genes). An analogy I thought of while reading this was that of a broken random number generator function. We're more likely to assess the software/environment in which the code is…

To be clearer about what I mean, this is something I wrote recently: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/07/public-priva... I wrestle a lot with such questions.

This conclusion seemed particularly insightful: "Where men need to prove they are good and caring people who aren't merely using you, I need to prove this is a formal, public sphere relationship, not a private and personal one. "

It reminds me of something one of my professors, a black man, said about how he decides to dress. He felt like he had to start with the assumption that many people would be afraid of him if he were dressed casually, so he compensates by dressing a bit more smartly than even the average professor.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#114

Post by ucaetano »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #97
ucaetano wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because there also can be a feedback effect from people preferring fields with more people of their own gender No, that would mean that women in business, architecture, physical sciences, etc. would not have increased. The fact that women in CS followed closely several other fields (business, architecture, etc.) means that % of women already on the field is not relevant. The fact that other fields that use skills s…

No it doesn't, because they're different fields, some of which are pre-med related. And amidst programming itself there's different behaviors. Way more men design their own programming languages.

The same argument that would disprove my point would also disprove OP's point that it is biological.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#115

Post by Archio »

dsfjksdf wrote: post #104
Archio wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's what I don't understand. Traditionally male-dominated fields rife with harassment issues - like law and medicine - now have much less of a problem, because the gender ratio has been somewhat normalized. Tech companies are actually becoming MORE male dominated - yet medicine and law would be put to shame by the sheer amount of mental and financial resources that tech companies pour into diversity efforts nowada…

Law and medicine are high status jobs, with a lot of people interactions. Yes, programmers have meetings. Not the same level of interaction as medicine, by a long stretch. There are many TV shows glorifying medicine and law. How many TV shows glorify the job of a programmer? How would you make a TV show glorifying the job of a programmer?

So why do young men study CS in college if programmers aren't glorified? Not to mention that being a "nerd" and "computer whiz" has never been a culturally attractive label, no matter what people might say today.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#117

Post by projektir »

ucaetano wrote: post #59
sp332 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, but without calling it anything it becomes a puzzle to even know what you're talking about.

> a certain culture that I'll call X > X (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more) Any suggestions on how to make it more clear? I don't want to give it a name, to avoid focusing in the name, which will then lead to an endless gaming culture vs. nerd culture vs. geek culture vs. the world. Honest question, non-confrontational, really wanna know :)

I thought it was perfectly clear. I quite like the usage of "X" specifically because it doesn't give it a name loaded with irrelevant baggage.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#118

Post by Mz »

ucaetano wrote: post #59
sp332 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine, but without calling it anything it becomes a puzzle to even know what you're talking about.

> a certain culture that I'll call X > X (which might include sci-fi, fantasy, video-games, board games, certain types of discussions, and a lot more) Any suggestions on how to make it more clear? I don't want to give it a name, to avoid focusing in the name, which will then lead to an endless gaming culture vs. nerd culture vs. geek culture vs. the world. Honest question, non-confrontational, really wanna know :)

You cannot please all of the people, all of the time. Trying will make you crazy.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#119

Post by yeukhon »

nyxtom wrote: post #111

I want to refute this notion that you have to work 24/hrs a day, 7 days a week. A lot of company cultures that are like that seem to be much more competitive and tends to favor young single kids ready to pour in late nights. I say this as a male, who is also somewhat young (late 20s), but I'm also married and I have a kid, and I'm a full-time software engineer who works remotely. In other words, I have a life before/…

+1. I lost most of the passion to hack on new things except doing the job and learn on the job (that's fun). I only hack/write code outside of work when I have a reason to or whenever I feel like to. I rather spend time outdoor or read a book or go to a show/museum whatever or spend time with my baby niece.

The notion software engineers spend weekend making new electronic gadgets or come up with a new awesome library is so stereotype, regardless of gender (there are many talented women enjoy hacking outside of their work hours). This culture manifests in startups, almost always. I come on HN and I find some peer pressure: why can't I be cool like these people make new app and get recognition and have a shiny resume?

Nah. Stop that thought.

I am still burnt out (for 6-7 years since college I didn't sleep much, used to code every night, tried to fix every problems threw at me), so pardon me. Will I ever recover? No, because I don't want that life anymore. For me, home is where I should relax, and my relaxation technique is not coding every night.

Re: As a Woman in Tech, I Realized: These Are Not My People

#120

Post by qq66 »

_jgvg wrote: post #13

I have never seen any career that is so deeply tied to a certain culture as CS/SWE and a certain culture that I'll call X, to avoid any discussions on naming and so on. I see far more diversity in tastes and interests in most other majors and careers, while in CS/SWE, X seems to hold a monopoly. CS/SWE goes far beyond a career, usually becoming close to a religion or way of life. I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or mos…

> I rarely see doctors, lawyers, or most professions engaging in their practice outside work as a hobby

That's more because it's hard to engage in medicine or law outside of an institution, which makes it hard to hobby with on the weekends. Plenty of auto mechanics fix cars on the weekend, plenty of graphic designers do personal art projects on the weekends. There are also plenty who don't.

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