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Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

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Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#121

Post by hyperpape »

jacquesm wrote: post #51
kibwen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of this, and I can respect differences attributable to different cultural norms. But firstly, I have spoken to a Finnish developer who has said that he also considers Linus more frustrating than average; secondly, acknowledging cultural differences creates a foundation for effective communication, but does not infallibly forgive any and all transgressions (context still matters); and thirdly, most other dev…

Well, personally I prefer the 'Linus' approach rather than the politically correct avoid-the-language-of-conflict and make sure you dress up every insult as a compliment approach, but I can see why if you're not used to it it can be tough. Sure, Linus is an outlier, even by Finnish standards, but I'm willing to cut the guy some slack because of his contributions, I'd be less willing to cut someone slack who does not…

You can prefer it all you want, but your opinion is unreasonable, and there's simply no justification for it.

...see? You can be direct, even uncompromising and arrogant, without being abusive.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#122

Post by brudgers »

jacquesm wrote: post #109
brudgers wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Torvaldes is not proud of his behavior, https://www.ted.com/talks/linus_torvalds_the_mind_behind_lin...

Which to me makes it even less of an issue.

For me, the video suggests Torvalde's communication style is less a matter of culture than individuality. That he is not proud of it seems missing from the caricaturizations of it used rhetorically.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#123

Post by eridius »

jacquesm wrote: post #108
eridius wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He surrounds himself with people that are willing to put up with his communication style. That doesn't mean he has a good communication style. > If you're easily offended don't contribute to the Linux kernel. That's a pretty shitty attitude to take. And you don't have to be "easily offended" to dislike interacting with Linus.

> That's a pretty shitty attitude to take. Why? The Linux kernel is mission critical, that means that tons of business and individual depend on it for all kinds of stuff that if it went down would be a major event with the losses likely hard to put a figure on. Developing for such an environment tends to be a fairly harsh affair, Linus was not bred for this, he more or less accidentally found himself the leader of a…

Correlation is not causation. Just because Linus managed to become BDFL of a hugely successful project doesn't mean Linus's communication style in any way caused this. And it doesn't mean that he should get a free pass on treating people badly.

A lot of people subscribe to the idea that if you don't have a thick skin you shouldn't be in tech. That's a terrible attitude to take, there's absolutely no reason why that should be true, and it discriminates against a lot of people (including women). This attitude just contributes to the current toxic tech culture.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#124

Post by pmoriarty »

chubot wrote: post #114
thethirdone wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current workflow works fine, and I hardly think any potential kernel hackers are choosing not to work on the kernel because it is email-driven. I'm not so sure. If the kernel development was on Github, I may have looked into contributing, but as it stands, its not worth the trouble to try to contribute (as I don't have anything specific to help with). And, I suspect there are more capable developers who are clo…

Linux is one of the few open source projects to with plenty of developers. They don't need or even want your help, especially if your attitude toward tools is rigid, and if you have nothing concrete to contribute. Linus has said this a few times -- in general they don't actively try to onboard new contributors.

"They don't need or even want your help"

There was in fact a talk given by Greg Kroah-Hartman, one Linux's lead maintainers, about development for the Linux kernel which he titled "I Don't Want Your Code".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMeH7wqOwXA

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#125

Post by uhhhhhhh »

jacquesm wrote: post #13
Waterluvian wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He really talks in extremes. I see all his points but it doesn't make these things pure garbage.

Progress relies strongly on unreasonable people like Linus. Keep in mind that Github mutilated his baby so that's a pretty good reason to be upset.

I wouldn't say he is unreasonable.

He is firm, strongly opinionated, and doesn't waste time catering to irrelevant feelings. That isn't "unreasonable", more "difficult" in my mind as far as personal interaction goes.

His actual opinions are usually very reasonable, just not communicated in ways that come across as such. At least in my opinion

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#126

Post by uhhhhhhh »

eridius wrote: post #98
jacquesm wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's had many many years to learn that his style of communication doesn't mesh with most people. Well, considering that Linux is pretty much powering the world it seems to me that his style of communication tends to mesh perfectly well with the people that he's working with and that they actually get the job done. As opposed to a whole pile of floundering competitors which are of course much better from a technical…

He surrounds himself with people that are willing to put up with his communication style. That doesn't mean he has a good communication style. > If you're easily offended don't contribute to the Linux kernel. That's a pretty shitty attitude to take. And you don't have to be "easily offended" to dislike interacting with Linus.

>And you don't have to be "easily offended" to dislike interacting with Linus.

If you don't do something because of a personal dislike, and expect others to cater to your culture and personal preferences, then the problem is you.

I've yet to work for a company where there wasn't some people I personally disliked working with. part of being professional is putting aside things like dislike and focusing on the core mission/goals and finding ways to work together despite how you feel.

Those that CANNOT work with linux I would say are those that are easily offended. Some may choose not to, but that is their own personal choice.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#127

Post by wiremine »

linkmotif wrote: post #115

Oh wow, the MAINTAINERS file is a work of art: https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin...

Hehe, never read through it, enjoyed Linus' info at the end

THE REST

M: Linus Torvalds

L: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org

Q: http://patchwork.kernel.org/project/LKML/list/

T: git git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git

S: Buried alive in reporters

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#128

Post by mi100hael »

iamcreasy wrote: post #76
mi100hael wrote: post #3

There's also Linus's personal aversion to how GitHub implements many opinionated workflows. > I don't do github pull requests. > > github throws away all the relevant information, like having even a > valid email address for the person asking me to pull. The diffstat is > also deficient and useless. > > Git comes with a nice pull-request generation module, but github > instead decided to replace it with their own tot…

> Git comes with a nice pull-request generation module, Can anybody explain a little more about this module? I thought 'pull request' is Github only.

You'd run "git format-patch" to create a .patch file with the diff of changes for a commit, and then run "git send-email" to send an email with the patch as the contents (optionally with additional comments). The recipient can then run "git apply" to apply the patches to their tree and push the changes.

For "private" repos, the recipient would be a specific repo maintainer/owner. For "public" repos like the Linux kernel, the recipient is usually a publicly-archived mailing list.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#129

Post by Someone »

chubot wrote: post #114
thethirdone wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The current workflow works fine, and I hardly think any potential kernel hackers are choosing not to work on the kernel because it is email-driven. I'm not so sure. If the kernel development was on Github, I may have looked into contributing, but as it stands, its not worth the trouble to try to contribute (as I don't have anything specific to help with). And, I suspect there are more capable developers who are clo…

Linux is one of the few open source projects to with plenty of developers. They don't need or even want your help, especially if your attitude toward tools is rigid, and if you have nothing concrete to contribute. Linus has said this a few times -- in general they don't actively try to onboard new contributors.

So, what's the age distribution of contributors to the main tree, and how does it develop over time?

This _might_ show a long-term risk for Linux.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#130

Post by eridius »

> If you don't do something because of a personal dislike, and expect others to cater to your culture and personal preferences, then the problem is you.

Are you serious? If Linus is a complete asshole and tells you to fuck off, and you don't like that, the problem is with you? How can you possibly defend that statement?

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