Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community • Hacker News Board

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#61

Post by geofft » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 9:49 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #13

Waterluvian wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He really talks in extremes. I see all his points but it doesn't make these things pure garbage.

Progress relies strongly on unreasonable people like Linus. Keep in mind that Github mutilated his baby so that's a pretty good reason to be upset.

Progress relies strongly on strong-willed people whose strong opinions are going in the direction of progress.

I doubt you will find many people who think that the state of GitHub PRs today represents less progress than the state of the `git request-pull` workflow. And, to be clear, there are a lot of things I prefer about `git request-pull`, starting with the ability to provide inline commentary on the commit message itself. But it's clear that GitHub has built a better product that keeps improving and has enabled a lot of teams to successfully build their own software. `git request-pull` is easily available to anyone with email, and I use it myself when there's no PR interface for a git repo, but people still tend to prefer the GitHub-style workflow.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#62

Post by ythn » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 9:50 PM UTC

snakeanus wrote: post #55

I can't really see the obsession that everyone has with centralised and closed services like github. We need to start moving away from them, not move more projects to them. Mailing lists and NNTP make decentralisation quite easy while being open standards and without having the need to have any account in any centralised service, why drop all these features away?

It's really nice having some things standardized. I can tell from a glace how popular a project is by the number of stars. I can tell how many bugs it has by perusing the issues. I know I'm not going to get any spyware if I download something.

The fragmented approach means you have to learn a bunch of different services, each with their own nuances. Then you have crap like sourceforce injecting adware into the download and now I have trust issues.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#63

Post by eosrei » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 9:50 PM UTC

uiri wrote: post #29

res0nat0r wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure github has done more for git uptake than anyone else involved on the lkml or Linus himself. He should be thanking them for that.

He should only be thanking them for that if git uptake around a mutilated version of his tooling is something that Linus wants. I suspect very strongly that he doesn't want that. In fact, if GitHub were a less popular service he wouldn't need to spend nearly as much time dealing with people who don't RTFM and submit GitHub PRs despite Linus' objections to them.

He doesn't read them. There is a bot for that now. Example: https://github.com/torvalds/linux/pull/445#issuecomment-3203...

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#64

Post by jordigh » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 9:50 PM UTC

snakeanus wrote: post #55

I can't really see the obsession that everyone has with centralised and closed services like github. We need to start moving away from them, not move more projects to them. Mailing lists and NNTP make decentralisation quite easy while being open standards and without having the need to have any account in any centralised service, why drop all these features away?

Git itself is already a monoculture, which makes me sad because it means I have very few people to speak hg to. Github makes it even worse.

But having everyone speaking the same VCS language has obvious advantages, especially when part of that language is where to host it and how to get a web view of it and how to share it. People centralise because it means someone else takes care of the boring work and you can go back to writing code. There are disadvantages to centralisation, just like there are disadvantages to giving up your privacy, but it's so damn convenient to do so that nobody has enough activation energy to do the opposite.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#65

Post by gjjrfcbugxbhf » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 9:51 PM UTC

Semaphor wrote: post #33

jacquesm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your browser has a 'Page style/No Style' option to take care of stuff like that.

Not that easy on mobile. Would be much better if people didn't feel the need to make their sites crappy

Firefox has a reader mode. It gives everything a nice consistent style.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#66

Post by geofft » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 9:52 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #51

kibwen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of this, and I can respect differences attributable to different cultural norms. But firstly, I have spoken to a Finnish developer who has said that he also considers Linus more frustrating than average; secondly, acknowledging cultural differences creates a foundation for effective communication, but does not infallibly forgive any and all transgressions (context still matters); and thirdly, most other dev…

Well, personally I prefer the 'Linus' approach rather than the politically correct avoid-the-language-of-conflict and make sure you dress up every insult as a compliment approach, but I can see why if you're not used to it it can be tough. Sure, Linus is an outlier, even by Finnish standards, but I'm willing to cut the guy some slack because of his contributions, I'd be less willing to cut someone slack who does not…

> politically correct avoid-the-language-of-conflict and make sure you dress up every insult as a compliment

These are two extremes, and you can find a middle ground between them.

In particular, here's a middle ground from someone objecting to Linus for willfully breaking userspace because he didn't think backwards-compatibility was important (a thing that he flames others to a crisp for), in a way that clearly expressed objection but not insult: https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/5/29/541

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#67

Post by ivanbakel » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 9:53 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #36

kibwen wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progress relies strongly on people working together toward a common goal. If being "unreasonable" works for Linux, that's fine. But before others go trying to blindly emulate Linus, I'd suggest attempting to be reasonable first.

What people really don't seem to get is that Linus' cultural background is Finnish, and that Finns tend to be extremely outspoken and that they couldn't lie or polish their words if their life depended on it. http://www.karelia.fi/welcomingguide/the-finnish-way-of-life What to American sensibilities are grave insults to Linus is most likely just him speaking his mind without any filter in place, the way he was brough…

Cultural differences aren't enough to explain away his open hostility to so many things and people.

To quote from the original comment in this thread:

>You're a moron.

I don't believe the Finnish mentality justifies being so aggressive - and if it does, I'd better stay a long way away from Finland, which is clearly an awful place to live.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#68

Post by askvictor » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 9:55 PM UTC

Sodman wrote: post #41

liaukovv wrote: post #4

This font gave me a headache Why not write with white on white? It would be so stylish

If things like this bother you, you should check out the chrome extension 'Dom Distiller'[0]. I saw it in another HN comment last week and it's already one of my favorite plugins! It drops all of the non-article content on most sites and leaves you with a centered, decent width, blank-and-white version of the article that's almost always easier to read than the original. [0] https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/…

Unless you're on mobile.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#69

Post by Boothroid » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

Ugh that font is unreadable on my phone.

Re: Why GitHub Can't Host the Linux Kernel Community

#70

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 9:57 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #66

jacquesm wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, personally I prefer the 'Linus' approach rather than the politically correct avoid-the-language-of-conflict and make sure you dress up every insult as a compliment approach, but I can see why if you're not used to it it can be tough. Sure, Linus is an outlier, even by Finnish standards, but I'm willing to cut the guy some slack because of his contributions, I'd be less willing to cut someone slack who does not…

> politically correct avoid-the-language-of-conflict and make sure you dress up every insult as a compliment These are two extremes, and you can find a middle ground between them. In particular, here's a middle ground from someone objecting to Linus for willfully breaking userspace because he didn't think backwards-compatibility was important (a thing that he flames others to a crisp for), in a way that clearly expre…

I'm sure if you go and sift through the incredible volume of product that Linus has made over the years you will find a few more examples of absolutely shocking behavior.

What's the last time someone did the opposite and searched for all the times when Linus was on his best behavior?

Have you considered the parallels with the Richelieu quote:

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. "

Linus has written far more than six lines and I'm sure you'll be able to do a stellar job of hanging him. But you're going to have to consider whether your ability hinges on Linus' perceived personality or on the volume of his communications and product.