Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams • Hacker News Board

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#231

Post by jacalata » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 5:33 PM UTC

kfriede wrote: post #149

yeukhon wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then the change contradicts your statment that the purpose "is to reduce the number of classes the students need to graduate" because if a student readiness for Math and English are low, then it doesn't make sense for them to move ahead. I agree with your final point. I also believe if the current mandate is to ensure students are prepared for upper course load, then at least the entry to admission perhaps need t…

Exactly. And sticking them in a 101 level class when they really should be in remedial can end up having taking the same amount of time if that student now needs to take the class twice (or more) to pass.

Except that they are now allowed to take other classes at the same time, which was previously disallowed.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#232

Post by olegkikin » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #227

userbinator wrote: post #19

The hope is that these efforts will also help students obtain their degrees sooner — one of the public university system's priorities. Cal State has committed to doubling its four-year graduation rate, from 19% to 40%, by 2025. The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates…

PwC, E&Y and others dropped university requirement because they don't tell anything about people. This is a downward spiral. Universities get less picky, A inflation, more money for universities but devaluing degrees. Companies catch on and drop the requirement for degrees. "Our own internal research of over 400 graduates found that screening students based on academic performance alone was too blunt an approach to r…

Companies will not drop the requirement for degrees, they will simply want the degrees from the universities/colleges that don't engage in this nonsense.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#233

Post by gozur88 » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 5:41 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #82

userbinator wrote: post #19

The hope is that these efforts will also help students obtain their degrees sooner — one of the public university system's priorities. Cal State has committed to doubling its four-year graduation rate, from 19% to 40%, by 2025. The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates…

>The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates high." No. You are completely missing the point here. Graduation requirements have not changed. Students still have to pass the same amount of classes. What this will do is allow students to have a shot at taking actual credit…

The problem is students who should be in remedial courses are going to turn the first year of college into High School Part II for everyone.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#234

Post by frandroid » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #125

dragandj wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be surprising? Hungary and Slovak Republic are countries with long traditions of strong education.

It's surprising because the per capita expenditure on education is higher in the US than pretty much everywhere else[1]. Assuming everything else is approximately equal (there are enough teachers, teachers havw proper access to materials, the intelligence of children is the same, etc) it implies that either spending more on education has a negative impact or that the US is using the wrong teaching methods. [1] http:/…

I'd also look at purchasing power parity... A dollar goes a long way in education in countries with weaker currencies.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#235

Post by gozur88 » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 5:44 PM UTC

g00gler wrote: post #136

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you are missing the point. For many years now, admissions standards have been so low that rather than teaching the courses they are scheduled to teach, college professors are forced to offer a remedial review of information that should have been mastered in high school. Many, if not most, high school graduates are functionally illiterate, lacking the basic reading and writing skills we took for granted in the rec…

I'm a recent graduate and work at my Alma mater, a large semi-private University. The bar was extremely low, especially at the business school. I was perplexed after reading people's discussion board posts or edit group work. Many students had serious trouble writing coherently or using proper grammar. Math classes were even more ridiculous. Around sophomore year I gave up on school work in favor of software developm…

StanislavPetrov is correct - the incentives are set up for the colleges to graduate you. If they don't have enough students, or too many drop out, they won't have enough income.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#236

Post by pitaa » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 5:46 PM UTC

There's a lot of talk about the motives behind this, but moving beyond that: is this even going to work? They say that:

> Under the new system, all Cal State students will be allowed to take courses that count toward their degrees beginning on Day 1. Students who need additional support in math or English, for example, could be placed in “stretch” courses that simultaneously provide remedial help and allow them to complete the general math and English credits required for graduation.

Which sounds great, but thinking about it I think it will end up putting an unreasonable workload on students. They talk like students are wasting time in these remedial classes, but the entire purpose of the remedial classes is to get students to a point where they can succeed in the next class. If they go into a college algebra class not being able to multiply fractions, or not being comfortable with addition and subtraction (which is way more common for people entering college than you might think), they're going to have a very hard time. Sure, these "stretch courses" might be there to help them, but I fear that essentially taking 2 math courses concurrently will be overwhelming for an already disadvantaged population of students.

Not to say that one needs a full k-12 math education to succeed in college math classes; you definitively do not. Like many things we teach our kids, the vast majority of what is covered in those math classes is basically useless. But they do (hopefully) result in students being comfortable with manipulating numbers and doing the basic arithmetic needed for further study. The remedial classes shouldn't be trying to cover a k-12 math education, just enough that the students can follow what is happening in subsequent classes without being confused by the arithmetic.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#237

Post by gozur88 » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 5:48 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #125

dragandj wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be surprising? Hungary and Slovak Republic are countries with long traditions of strong education.

It's surprising because the per capita expenditure on education is higher in the US than pretty much everywhere else[1]. Assuming everything else is approximately equal (there are enough teachers, teachers havw proper access to materials, the intelligence of children is the same, etc) it implies that either spending more on education has a negative impact or that the US is using the wrong teaching methods. [1] http:/…

Or... it could imply that in the US the perception is your future depends less on whether you can conquer advanced math, so students aren't as motivated to learn. I would argue that perception is a bit wrongheaded, but perceptions are what people use to make decisions.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#238

Post by kazen44 » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 5:50 PM UTC

danschumann wrote: post #190

It seems like they just want EVERYONE to go to college, even if they go $100k into debt to study German Polka History. They should give fewer student loans, or make them bankruptable, and make sure students actually will be financially benefited within 10 years. There is a surplus of students, which technically means they can give inferior education. If there were a shortage of students, universities would need to up…

what is a far larger problem is the fact that employers basically demand college and university degrees for jobs which require neither.

I am not american, but i wonder why the US seems to lack a tiered tertiary education system? In the netherlands for example, we have different levels of tertiary education going all the way from trade school to polytechnical education to research universities. This systems seems to create a far more fitting model for the labour market, instead of requiring everyone to have a college education which all vary widly in terms of levels of competence.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#239

Post by ouid » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 5:50 PM UTC

cyrks wrote: post #209

onion2k wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's surprising because the per capita expenditure on education is higher in the US than pretty much everywhere else[1]. Assuming everything else is approximately equal (there are enough teachers, teachers havw proper access to materials, the intelligence of children is the same, etc) it implies that either spending more on education has a negative impact or that the US is using the wrong teaching methods. [1] http:/…

While educational spending per student is higher in the US, the travesty is where that money is spent. It's not all spent on the students. If it were, the US wouldn't have the (overall) terrible public educational system that it has.

https://www.cdw.com/shop/products/SMART-kapp-IQ-Pro-65-inter...

I recently visited a school with one of these in every classroom. Every student has a laptop. Every classroom has an unused commercial "curriculum" product in the corner.

And given how much administrators make, and presumably embezzle, I'm not even sure these are bad investments, in a relative sense.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#240

Post by nradov » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #30

I recently interviewed a master's CS student at a decent state school looking for a part-time job. She had barely programmed before the master's CS (undergrad was in MIS). Did not know what a hash table / dictionary / etc. was. So troubling for someone soon to graduate with a master's in CS.

CS is a broad discipline. It doesn't necessarily include much programming or data structures, depending on the student's focus. If you want programmers then you should be recruiting based on other qualifications than a MSCS degree, or expect to provide a lot of training.