Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams • Hacker News Board

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#131

Post by crispyambulance » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:14 PM UTC

40acres wrote: post #34

bloaf wrote: post #8

This is part of a long and slow change in the role of higher education. Previously, college was seen as being for people who academically deserved it. College was not for teaching high-school level concepts, it was for teaching advanced concepts to students who had already demonstrated some bona fides. Now, it is seen as an extension of high school; the onus is on the college to mold all comers into more educated and…

Perhaps the US wouldn't have this issue if we had a strong vocational program culture.

Yes, I suspect that the real reason the students "don't need" remedial programs to complete their degrees is that the specific degrees are actually vocational rather than academic.

An incoming student that can't write a cogent essay or do basic math problems simply isn't ready for any traditional degree program. The best they can do, if they're not going to grind through remedial courses, is to start training for a job.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#132

Post by tnzn » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:20 PM UTC

Nickersf wrote: post #59

Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to educat…

Actually meritocracy is bullshit really. How can you measure merit ? By the outcomes ? Are you seriously believing outcomes measure merit ? If so I have bad news for you.

As for the argument that society will collapse because of the democratization of education and degrees and whatnot,it's at least a hundred years old argument. In France the right-wing has been whining about it for 50 years (especially regarding math) and we still have mathematicians that are among the best in the world.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#133

Post by tnzn » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:20 PM UTC

Nickersf wrote: post #59

Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to educat…

Actually meritocracy is bullshit really. How can you measure merit ? By the outcomes ? Are you seriously believing outcomes measure merit ? If so I have bad news for you.

As for the argument that society will collapse because of dumbing down education and whatnot,it's at leasta hundred years old argument.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#134

Post by tnzn » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:20 PM UTC

Nickersf wrote: post #59

Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to educat…

Actually meritocracy is bullshit really. How can you measure merit ? By the outcomes ? Are you seriously believing outcomes measure merit ? If so I have bad news for you.

As for the argument that society will collapse because of dumbing down education and whatnot,it's at leasta hundred years old argument.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#135

Post by tnzn » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:20 PM UTC

Nickersf wrote: post #59

Let's just drop meritocracy all together. Everything is subjective, right? Seriously though, I'm worried about our future as a spieces. The knowledge and technologies we have developed, which require nurturing. We nurture modern civilization by making sure the smartest get into positions where they can express their intellect. Part of that process needs to be keeping rigours standards in place when it comes to educat…

Actually meritocracy is bullshit really. How can you measure merit ? By the outcomes ? Are you seriously believing outcomes measure merit ? If so I have bad news for you.

As for the argument that society will collapse because of dumbing down education and whatnot,it's at leasta hundred years old argument.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#136

Post by g00gler » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:20 PM UTC

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #95

aphextron wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates high." No. You are completely missing the point here. Graduation requirements have not changed. Students still have to pass the same amount of classes. What this will do is allow students to have a shot at taking actual credit…

No, you are missing the point. For many years now, admissions standards have been so low that rather than teaching the courses they are scheduled to teach, college professors are forced to offer a remedial review of information that should have been mastered in high school. Many, if not most, high school graduates are functionally illiterate, lacking the basic reading and writing skills we took for granted in the rec…

I'm a recent graduate and work at my Alma mater, a large semi-private University.

The bar was extremely low, especially at the business school. I was perplexed after reading people's discussion board posts or edit group work. Many students had serious trouble writing coherently or using proper grammar. Math classes were even more ridiculous.

Around sophomore year I gave up on school work in favor of software development and still managed to graduate with a 3.2 GPA.

I'm looking for a new job in part because I disagree with their decision to seriously ramp up marketing and recruitment. IMO if a university can't stand on their faculty / programs / research they aren't really worth attending.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#137

Post by g00gler » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:20 PM UTC

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #95

aphextron wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates high." No. You are completely missing the point here. Graduation requirements have not changed. Students still have to pass the same amount of classes. What this will do is allow students to have a shot at taking actual credit…

No, you are missing the point. For many years now, admissions standards have been so low that rather than teaching the courses they are scheduled to teach, college professors are forced to offer a remedial review of information that should have been mastered in high school. Many, if not most, high school graduates are functionally illiterate, lacking the basic reading and writing skills we took for granted in the rec…

I'm a recent graduate and work at my Alma mater, a large semi-private University.

The bar was extremely low, especially at the business school. I was perplexed after reading people's discussion board posts or edit group work. Many students had serious trouble writing coherently or using proper grammar. Math classes were even more ridiculous.

Around sophomore year I gave up on school work in favor of software development and still managed to graduate with a 3.2 GPA.

I'm looking for a new job in part because I disagree with their decision to seriously ramp up marketing and recruitment. IMO if a university can't stand on their faculty / programs / research they aren't really worth attending.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#138

Post by midnitewarrior » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:25 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #82

userbinator wrote: post #19

The hope is that these efforts will also help students obtain their degrees sooner — one of the public university system's priorities. Cal State has committed to doubling its four-year graduation rate, from 19% to 40%, by 2025. The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates…

>The implicit message here seems to be, "let everyone pass through the system regardless of how qualified they actually are, but we'll have to lower the bar to keep grades and graduation rates high." No. You are completely missing the point here. Graduation requirements have not changed. Students still have to pass the same amount of classes. What this will do is allow students to have a shot at taking actual credit…

It matters if they have professors that grade on a curve. Take all of those students who wouldn't pass the math entrance exam and put then in the same College Algebra class. They are all terrible students but the curve grading passes 80% of them.

> allow students to have a shot at taking actual credit courses rather than being forced into noncredit remedial classes they may not actually need

If the placement tests are done well, they would indicate that which remedial classes the students may need. If the tests are flawed, fix the tests, don't eliminate them.

While putting them into 101 classes may help them, it slows down the rest of the class -- the students who are up-to-speed on the skills required for the class get less attention spent on them because more focus must be placed on the students who didn't pass placement.

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#139

Post by dragandj » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:26 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #125

dragandj wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would that be surprising? Hungary and Slovak Republic are countries with long traditions of strong education.

It's surprising because the per capita expenditure on education is higher in the US than pretty much everywhere else[1]. Assuming everything else is approximately equal (there are enough teachers, teachers havw proper access to materials, the intelligence of children is the same, etc) it implies that either spending more on education has a negative impact or that the US is using the wrong teaching methods. [1] http:/…

It's not all about the money, it's obvious....

Re: Cal State will no longer require math and English placement exams

#140

Post by metaphor » Wed, Aug 09, 2017, 12:28 PM UTC

mamon wrote: post #115

danieltillett wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the only reason Harvard and Yale have any value. You could take the first year student intake at these institutions and distribute them randomly to other universities and the end result would be the same as letting the students study at Yale or Harvard.

No. If you distributed the students admitted to Harvard among other universities their education would be impaired by the fact that the professors would have to dumb down the material taught in their classes to their less bright colleagues. Not to mention that the professors themselves would not be as smart and accomplished as Harvard professors.

A distinct flavor of hubris arises from self-proclaimed brilliance being so easily impaired by a silver spoon that isn't quite as shiny.