Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

hosted.ap.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 90 posts

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#71

Post by aaomidi »

baumy wrote: post #70
aaomidi wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does this apply to other countries where women are higher in STEM and tech than men? For example, in Iran more than 60% of STEM students are female.

I am not particularly knowledgeable about that, so I don't have much to offer here. I'll take a stab, but I don't have anything to cite, and my opinions aren't well informed - For various reasons I don't want to go into on this thread, Iran is not a society that I think should be looked up to and emulated. It frequently gets cited as an example of highly misogynistic culture, and as far as I know has plenty of laws /…

Oh I was definitely not saying Iran should be a role model for the rest of the world. I'm saying examples exist that prove the negation of the "biological" argument.

Which brings doubt into, if we're raising boys and girls without considering gender norms would boys really outnumber girls in tech?

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#72

Post by flukus »

bobdole1234 wrote: post #69
flukus wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I can tell, he shared his controversial opinion in a forum specifically for controversial opinions , that is not a lack of tact. I don't know if this is true, but after reading "journalists" summarize the memo random internet comments from purported googlers seem about as reliable.

Well, if you get fired for it, you lacked tact. Google is pretty clear about what is and isn't inside the lines for their code of conduct, and they make you take a mandatory refresher course every year on your anniversary of employment. Which is partly why this guy was so pissy about the echo chambers rules: They're always in his face.

> Well, if you get fired for it, you lacked tact.

Really, you don't think there were any factors beyond his control, like other people spreading it around and media misreporting it?

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#73

Post by baumy »

aaomidi wrote: post #71
baumy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not particularly knowledgeable about that, so I don't have much to offer here. I'll take a stab, but I don't have anything to cite, and my opinions aren't well informed - For various reasons I don't want to go into on this thread, Iran is not a society that I think should be looked up to and emulated. It frequently gets cited as an example of highly misogynistic culture, and as far as I know has plenty of laws /…

Oh I was definitely not saying Iran should be a role model for the rest of the world. I'm saying examples exist that prove the negation of the "biological" argument. Which brings doubt into, if we're raising boys and girls without considering gender norms would boys really outnumber girls in tech?

I would not go so far as to say they "prove" the negation of the biological argument, when there is so much evidence that points the other direction, and a practically infinte number of confounding variables are involved if all you're doing is pointing at a couple of countries like Iran and saying "look at that". So I don't actually think it brings doubt into anything.

Personally, I think it's very likely that if a large number of men and a large number of women were each given exactly equal opportunity to pursue whatever career they wished, more men would pursue tech than women. I haven't seen any data that contradicts this belief, but if I did I'd like to think I would change my mind. Of course, I have no idea what range we should expect the proportions to fall into. 51/49? 60/40? 90/10? Obviously this also means that I have no idea if the gender representation we see in tech currently accurately represents the population of people who would be interested in it, given the opportunity. But I think the weight of the evidence that we should expect more men than women in tech is much higher than the weight to the contrary. Not knowing the exact numbers simply means that we should focus our efforts on making sure everybody has equal opportunity to pursue whichever career interests them the most, as opposed to trying to reach some arbitrary numerical threshold. As long as all people are free to make their own choices, we shouldn't be concerned how the distributions turn out.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#74

Post by visarga »

nikdaheratik wrote: post #24
davidreiss wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're conflating a political movement with a company doing PR damage control. Google management didn't "call him names". Google is heavily invested in the political movement. Lets not pretend google is an objective observer in this. > They are actively trying to hire the best engineers in the world and this memo just put a dent in their hiring process for 50% of their potential hiring candidates. Can you point to…

>Google is heavily invested in the political movement. What "political movement" did the guy they fired represent? "All men are created equal" is a political statement, "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" is a political statement, "Half the world's population is unsuitable for technical work because of their gender" is bigoted nonsense. That he tried to use discredited pseudo-science to back up his statement doesn't make…

> "Half the world's population is unsuitable for technical work because of their gender"

Much more than half the world's population is unsuitable for technical work because of their lack of skills or interest. Is that bigoted nonsense? The guy wasn't making a blanket affirmation that women aren't suited for tech - just why there is a different level of interest for this field between genders.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#75

Post by palerdot »

williamle8300 wrote: post #60
maxscam wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please extrapolate what is the differerence. I dont see it

Read the Sundar's letter. They're saying James was wrong, not that he not that James didn't fit the culture.

You cannot prove either ways on whether James was right or wrong, because his memo was a scattering of everything. But, his idea proves to be a serious obstacle for fellow google engineers especially women to collaborate with him. This is good enough reason for Google to fire him.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#76

Post by imaginenore »

nikdaheratik wrote: post #24
davidreiss wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're conflating a political movement with a company doing PR damage control. Google management didn't "call him names". Google is heavily invested in the political movement. Lets not pretend google is an objective observer in this. > They are actively trying to hire the best engineers in the world and this memo just put a dent in their hiring process for 50% of their potential hiring candidates. Can you point to…

>Google is heavily invested in the political movement. What "political movement" did the guy they fired represent? "All men are created equal" is a political statement, "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" is a political statement, "Half the world's population is unsuitable for technical work because of their gender" is bigoted nonsense. That he tried to use discredited pseudo-science to back up his statement doesn't make…

> "Half the world's population is unsuitable for technical work because of their gender"

These kind of lies is the core of the problem. You even put quotes around it, yet the guy never wrote anything like that. You just made it up.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#77

Post by IshKebab »

didgeoridoo wrote: post #52
throwerway wrote: post #46

> Men and woman ARE equal. I used to believe so, until I discovered there were thousands of studies suggesting that statistically, men and women aren't equal. Each one of these points is backed up by dozens of statistical studies. Are there statistical differences between males and females in height? Yes Are there statistical differences between males and females in athletic ability? Yes Are there statistical differe…

You're not parsing the difference between "equality" and "identicality". Equality is about the rights one has, and how one should be treated as an individual — equality before the law, and before society. We strive for a society where men and woman are equal, blacks and whites are equal, straights and gays are equal. Universal equality, however, does NOT require us to believe that people are identical in personality,…

That may be what "equal" means to hard-core feminists but to everyone else it is a synonym for "identical". Wiktionary defines it as "the same in all respects".

If you are talking in non-feminist circles you probably want to use standard language, e.g. "treated equally". You'll get fewer arguments about words that have been redefined by a small group.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#78

Post by davidreiss »

aaomidi wrote: post #67
baumy wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author took great pain to distinguish between traits having a tendency to exist at higher rates within a group, and traits being exhibited by an individual. You don't seem to have comprehended his point. Barring diversity programs allowing members of select groups to pass a lower hiring/performance bar, a person sitting at the desk next to me at work is just as likely to be a competent engineer as anyone else, re…

How does this apply to other countries where women are higher in STEM and tech than men? For example, in Iran more than 60% of STEM students are female.

> How does this apply to other countries where women are higher in STEM and tech than men? For example, in Iran more than 60% of STEM students are female.

That's because in iran, the government sets the "standards for women's and men's study". Women are FORCED to take these classes.

Also, iranian women outnumber men in STEM within iran because iranian families with money send their male children overseas to study.

The numbers are even more skewed for UAE, Kuwait, etc. There, the women are like 80% of the local university populations because the wealthy arabs send their sons to study abroad in US, UK, Canada, Australia, etc.

There are political scientists/psychologists who say that the lack is choice is why women in iran and middle east are so well represented in STEM. In the west, females have lots of choices and they have a say in what they study. The government/fathers can't tell women you have to study this or that. That's not the case in iran. If iran ever opened up and liberalized, the thinking is that a large portion of the women will choose non-STEM fields, just like they do in the West.

In short, why do they study stem? They study STEM subjects for the same reason they wear burqas. They have no choice.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#79

Post by bobdole1234 »

flukus wrote: post #72
bobdole1234 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if you get fired for it, you lacked tact. Google is pretty clear about what is and isn't inside the lines for their code of conduct, and they make you take a mandatory refresher course every year on your anniversary of employment. Which is partly why this guy was so pissy about the echo chambers rules: They're always in his face.

> Well, if you get fired for it, you lacked tact. Really, you don't think there were any factors beyond his control, like other people spreading it around and media misreporting it?

The only reason it spread was because people were shocked by his lack of tact.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#80

Post by vkou »

baumy wrote: post #64
vkou wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Verbatim, from the manifesto: > Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs. Women are neurotic, emotional and can't handle stress! Awesome! Haven't heard that one before. > We always ask why we don’t see women in top leadership positions, but we never ask why we see so many me…

> Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs. Neuroticism is a precisely defined term in psychology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits The author cited many sources from scientific studies which have consistently found that on average, women score highe…

1. Google is not not employing an arbitrary, randomly picked group of women. Even if neuroticism in the general population were negatively correlated with engineering performance (Which he has no citations for), that would not be relevant, as the candidates are not randomly selected from the general population. What this does, is reinforce a harmful sterotype about his co-workers. (Or it is a complete non-sequitur about people who will never become co-workers. The average man can't do software engineering either. So what?)

Black people do a lot of crime[citation, citation, science, citation], but that's not relevant to why they struggle to get promoted.

2. The author asserts that women are biologically different. The author asserts that this biological difference makes them less capable of succeeding in tech [citation needed]. The author presents this as an obvious solution for why they aren't succeeding in tech!

What else could this train of reasoning possibly mean?

3. Software Engineering is already highly collaborative, but that is a non-sequitur.

The implication here is that currently, it's not for girls, because they aren't interested in things. But if we change it, we can make it for them! This means that it is currently not suited for them. Because biology.

4. Yes, there are worthwhile bits of discussion in this essay. In fact, the overwhelming majority of it, while controversial, is not espousing the inherent inability of a random subset of women to do engineering, as currently practiced.

The small part of it that is, though, is the problem. It's also the kernel of the argument.

Post reply on HN