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Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

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Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#61
post #33
post #28

For those who discuss this as "being fired for wrongthink": Companies fire people for lack of cultural fit. How is this any different?

It may not be any different. In any case, and irrespective of this specific case or how anyone might feel about it, I think it's probably a good idea to be critical of claims like bad cultural fit when coming from corporate execs. Yes, there are some people who are unable to act in a way that most would agree is a professional manner, and indeed these people are toxic and pretty much impossible to work with, however,…

I feel like this is a "keep the politics out of everyday life" thing.

Ultimately if you're working together, then personal differences come into play (just like they do in other sphere of life). There are ways of professionalising environments, of course

I think once you reach "people management" itself, then its basically in the job description that this sort of stuff matters.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#62
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The crux of the argument was: 1. There are biological differences between men and women. 2. Because #1 and and evolutionary psychology, this makes women bad engineers. 3. Because #1 and #2, diversity programs are harmful. Saying one of those three things creates a hostile work environment. Nothing in that manifesto provided any unique, novel, or original insight. It was the same old, same-old, 'computers are for boys…

No. Arguments #2 and #3 were not made. Argument #1 is utterly uncontroversial. Please read the essay.

Verbatim, from the manifesto:

> Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs.

Women are neurotic, emotional and can't handle stress! Awesome! Haven't heard that one before.

> We always ask why we don’t see women in top leadership positions, but we never ask why we see so many men in these jobs. These positions often require long, stressful hours that may not be worth it if you want a balanced and fulfilling life.

And because they are emotional and can't handle stress, that's why they don't get promoted, and become top leaders! Mystery solved! No unconscious bias here, especially not from people who share the author's opinions.

> Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things > We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration...

Software engineering, as we practice it, is not for girls. We can change it to make it more for girls!

As I said, this is the poster child for "Computers are for boys, talking to people is for girls," mixed with some suggestions. Have you read the essay?

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#63
post #48
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prejudice means pre-judging a group. Would it be a prejudice to say women on average are less tall than men? Where do you draw the line between "pre-judgement" and "statistics" (can we call it post-judgement?). Height is OK but work drive is not OK to post-judge?

In this context it's clearly a prejudicial belief that he is promoting that can have negative consequences for women. Go ahead and bury my comments. Judges will eventually explain the laws to you people.

The author took great pain to distinguish between traits having a tendency to exist at higher rates within a group, and traits being exhibited by an individual. You don't seem to have comprehended his point. Barring diversity programs allowing members of select groups to pass a lower hiring/performance bar, a person sitting at the desk next to me at work is just as likely to be a competent engineer as anyone else, regardless of their gender. But if you were to take 1,000 women and 1,000 men from a young age and treat them precisely equally, there are strong scientific arguments that we should expect to see a larger number of the men go into tech than women.

To reiterate, this says precisely nothing about the qualifications and competency of individuals who actually enter tech, it only speaks to the relative number of men and women we ought to expect our workforce to be composed of. It could be that the natural result of equal opportunity for all men and women to enter tech is for there to be more than 50% men, possibly quite a bit more. Again, there is a lot of research that indicates this (for citations, see the "manifesto").

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#64
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Arguments #2 and #3 were not made. Argument #1 is utterly uncontroversial. Please read the essay.

Verbatim, from the manifesto: > Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs. Women are neurotic, emotional and can't handle stress! Awesome! Haven't heard that one before. > We always ask why we don’t see women in top leadership positions, but we never ask why we see so many me…

> Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs.

Neuroticism is a precisely defined term in psychology:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits

The author cited many sources from scientific studies which have consistently found that on average, women score higher on that scale than men. The wording of your juvenile mocking of that statement seems to imply that you didn't comprehend the most fundamental point the author made through his entire essay; he is not saying that "women are neurotic", he's saying that out of a large sample of women, we'd statistically expect more of them to be above some arbitrary neurotic "threshold" than out of an equivalent sample of men. If tendency to be relatively more neurotic is negatively correlated with pursuing a career in tech, we'd expect more men than women to want to pursue careers in tech. Please explain what is sexist about that observation.

> We always ask why we don’t see women in top leadership positions, but we never ask why we see so many men in these jobs. These positions often require long, stressful hours that may not be worth it if you want a balanced and fulfilling life.

The commentary you provided here is coming entirely from you, not the author. You've assigned the author biases that you believe he holds, and are assuming motivations behind his statements that are not there, and there is no reason to think they're there. If you don't believe this statement is true, please provide a citation indicating that women are equally willing as men to work long hours and endure stress in the workplace. The author provides several indicating otherwise, do you have anything to disprove him with?

> Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things > We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration...

Your interpretation of this is very baffling to me. This struck me as a fantastic idea! Without even considering whether it appeals to women in particular, this seems a wonderful way to try to make software engineering more appealing to those who like working actively and in close proximity with other people. Imagine if it was an industry norm for software engineers to have "partners" who they frequently/consistently worked with, pair programming style. Personally that does not appeal to me at all, but I can easily imagine people who never would consider software engineering as a career reconsidering it if that was an aspect of it. Having a programming "partner" who you work as closely with, and could potentially form as much of a bond with as police partners could potentially draw people into our field who currently don't think they would like it. These are the kind of interesting ideas that are worth discussion, but that discussion is being shut down by outrage.

> As I said, this is the poster child for "Computers are for boys, talking to people is for girls," mixed with some suggestions. Have you read the essay?

To be frank, this summary of the essay is so wildly inaccurate that you are either lying about having read it, your reading comprehension is shockingly poor, or (and I think this is the most likely) you have strongly held beliefs related to the topic at hand, and are reacting violently in the face of a decently well reasoned argument that challenges those beliefs. It's not the greatest essay ever written, everything in it isn't gospel truth, and in some places where the author veers away from relaying scientific stuides to offering his personal interpretations/opinions, I don't agree with him. But to dismiss it as you did is a poor reflection on your ability to engage with those you disagree with and have a constructive conversation.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Arguments #2 and #3 were not made. Argument #1 is utterly uncontroversial. Please read the essay.

So, there's this thing that happens when people who lack tact say things that are true, but they get fired for it. When you say things without tact, people hear the wrong thing, and you get the walk of shame with your cube plant out of the building. It doesn't matter how "right" it might be.

From what I can tell, he shared his controversial opinion in a forum specifically for controversial opinions, that is not a lack of tact.

I don't know if this is true, but after reading "journalists" summarize the memo random internet comments from purported googlers seem about as reliable.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The statement by Google's CEO categorizes some specific sections of the the article into the "okay" bin, and some sections into the "fireable" bin. That's about as good as a start as you are likely to get. https://www.blog.google/topics/diversity/note-employees-ceo-...

> To suggest a group of our colleagues have traits that make them less biologically suited to that work is offensive and not OK I don't know, I read the article and it seem to me his point was pretty clear that men and women have biological differences that make them drawn to different types of work, and to find enjoyment in different things. I actually found his point in saying we should increase cooperative work (s…

I'm going to get downvoted to hell by saying this but...

He also implied that women who get into google are there because the bar is lowered. This implication means when he sees a female coworker, he automatically assumes they're less "effective" than a male co-worker and they're only there because the standards were lowered for them. Essentially this makes the workplace hostile. If you're a woman, you know that this guy thinks "less" of you because of the way you were born. He basically put into words his implicit and explicit biases towards women.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#67
post #63
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this context it's clearly a prejudicial belief that he is promoting that can have negative consequences for women. Go ahead and bury my comments. Judges will eventually explain the laws to you people.

The author took great pain to distinguish between traits having a tendency to exist at higher rates within a group, and traits being exhibited by an individual. You don't seem to have comprehended his point. Barring diversity programs allowing members of select groups to pass a lower hiring/performance bar, a person sitting at the desk next to me at work is just as likely to be a competent engineer as anyone else, re…

How does this apply to other countries where women are higher in STEM and tech than men? For example, in Iran more than 60% of STEM students are female.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#68

They fired him for making women and minorities at google feel unwelcome due to their gender and ethnicity respectively. That's a violation of the company code of conduct and kind of a dick move. People who work hard to become experts in their fields should not have to continually prove that they are in fact good enough and smart enough for the positions they have earned.

> They fired him for making women and minorities at google feel unwelcome due to their gender and ethnicity respectively. What did he say that made women feel unwelcome? What did he say about minorities?

Automatically assuming that women are there because the standards were lowered for them. Indicating that when he's working with a female co-worker, he thinks they shouldn't be there and the only reason they're there is because of "reverse discrimination".

He spoke about affirmative action as well, but most of his arguments were against women.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#69
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, there's this thing that happens when people who lack tact say things that are true, but they get fired for it. When you say things without tact, people hear the wrong thing, and you get the walk of shame with your cube plant out of the building. It doesn't matter how "right" it might be.

From what I can tell, he shared his controversial opinion in a forum specifically for controversial opinions , that is not a lack of tact. I don't know if this is true, but after reading "journalists" summarize the memo random internet comments from purported googlers seem about as reliable.

Well, if you get fired for it, you lacked tact.

Google is pretty clear about what is and isn't inside the lines for their code of conduct, and they make you take a mandatory refresher course every year on your anniversary of employment.

Which is partly why this guy was so pissy about the echo chambers rules: They're always in his face.

Re: Fired Google engineer files complaint, weighs legal options

#70
post #67
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author took great pain to distinguish between traits having a tendency to exist at higher rates within a group, and traits being exhibited by an individual. You don't seem to have comprehended his point. Barring diversity programs allowing members of select groups to pass a lower hiring/performance bar, a person sitting at the desk next to me at work is just as likely to be a competent engineer as anyone else, re…

How does this apply to other countries where women are higher in STEM and tech than men? For example, in Iran more than 60% of STEM students are female.

I am not particularly knowledgeable about that, so I don't have much to offer here. I'll take a stab, but I don't have anything to cite, and my opinions aren't well informed -

For various reasons I don't want to go into on this thread, Iran is not a society that I think should be looked up to and emulated. It frequently gets cited as an example of highly misogynistic culture, and as far as I know has plenty of laws / official practices that codify inequality of women in a way that many other developed countries (e.g., the United States, countries in the EU, etc) don't. I'm happy to be corrected on this as I really don't know all that much about Iran, but I strongly suspect the people decrying the google essay as being sexist would agree that Iran is not a good role model for egalitarian society. Regardless, from what little I do know, if the structure of Iranian society/culture is what it takes to get high representation of women in STEM, is that really worth it?

I have one more thing to add - I found this video to be thought provoking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5LRdW8xw70&t=300

(I've linked to a specific time where the material is particularly relevant, but the whole thing is worth a watch)

To summarize, that video makes the observation that less wealthy, less egalitarian countries have higher rates of women in typically male professions. Conversely, very rich and egalitarian countries have a lower amount of women in them. The explanation for this phenomenon that is proposed in the video (if I remember right, I watched this years ago) is that when factors like wages, status, family expectations, etc are given less and less importance, and people are therefore relatively more free to choose professions based on desire rather than need, women tend to avoid jobs within STEM fields. To be clear, that's merely one interpretation of the data (although it sounds plausible to me), there are likely other valid ones.

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