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Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

bloomberg.com

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Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#151

Post by nxsynonym »

bilbo0s wrote: post #125
nxsynonym wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of the point though. Google is one of, if not the, biggest player in terms of information served over the internet. If they are willing to censor at this level, how far will they go to protect their public image and suppress discussion they don't agree with?

But Google isn't really "censor"-ing anyone. Any more than I "censor" you if you come on to my property and refer to my daughter as the "c"-word. I mean... you can call my daughter whatever you like, I just don't allow you to do it in my house. That's not really censorship no matter how big the house is, that's just something that people should expect to happen. In fact... I think people should find it more strange i…

I think it would be more like if your Son said "what if I called my sister a c-word" and you kicked him out of the house and cut him off completely.

I'm not saying you don't have the right to do that, or that in this example your son was right, I just think it would be an over-reaction and would create a chilling effect on your other children from asking questions or thinking about things differently.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#152

Post by canoebuilder »

ithilglin909 wrote: post #52

Here, here. I’m a software engineer who happens to be a woman. Mr. Damore's piece didn’t offend me at all. There were parts I agreed with and parts I didn’t agree with. I’m more bothered by Google’s response(s) which seemed to reveal an incredible lack of critical reading ability, and far more disturbed by the levels of harshly enforced group-think that seem to increasingly dominate supposedly intelligent circles.

incredible lack of critical reading ability

When factoring in all the egregiously false headlines, news stories, tweets, etc. about this I think what is really going on is not lack of critical reading ability, but rather some people's willingness to tell outright lies and willful misrepresentations when someone points out aspects of reality that these falsehood peddlers would prefer didn't exist for whatever reason.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#153

Post by GhotiFish »

kevinburke wrote: post #59
naturalgradient wrote: post #10

What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people. I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian. Not the Tweeters shaking with…

A right to free speech doesn't mean you are also free from any consequences for that speech.. ? The Constitution allows you to say whatever you want but your employer's also free to fire you for saying it. As an example, if you say racist things to a customer, your employer should be able to fire you. I have heard people say he should get fired, but I haven't heard anyone saying he should be "expelled from society" o…

To be blunt, it kinda does.

Before, the major actor that could issue genuine consequences for speech was the state. The word "Consequences" in the statement "freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences", means a punch to the face or a stern shaming from townsfolk. You got on with it, kept doing your job, continued to live your life.

When the state objected to your speech, it would end your life, it would destroy you.

But fast forward to today. Suddenly loud demographics of people have the ability to destroy you in the long term, destroy your working prospects, smear your reputation, mark you as unhireable, harass you everywhere. State level consequences. It's no longer a punch to the face in a bar for obnoxious speech. It's no longer the "consequences" in "freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences". Those consequences are now state level. How meaningless would this statement be if it was "Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of consequences from the state."

"You're free to talk, no one will stop you, but we the state still get to destroy your life." How meaningless is that?!

You say people shouldn't be vilified as an outcast. But that's what will happen!

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#154

Post by slg »

amyjess wrote: post #112
slg wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue it is the opposite of authoritarian, it is mob rule. No one person or centralized authority deemed this person's actions as unacceptable. It was the majority of the community as a whole that deemed his actions as unacceptable. That is certainly a scary thing to see in action, but I think it is a different thing entirely than an authoritarian regime.

I call that society's natural immune system.

I like that analogy. The immune system is generally good, but it can do a lot of damage if any number of things go wrong.

In the grand scheme of things, being intolerant towards intolerance is certainly on the positive side, but it is still scary seeing the vitriol directed towards whoever is the current target of our internet hate.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#155

Post by MBCook »

illuminati1911 wrote: post #72

If companies/people REALLY want to solve the diversity issue, we have to have open discussion and let even "stupid" opinions be openly shared/discussed. If you are right about something you don't need to silence/censor others. If you are not, then you do. The witch-hunt has to end.

I think a lot of people (on both sides) feel like we've had the "stupid opinions" part of the debate repeatedly for a long time and are tired of having to put up with hearing the same "stupid" arguments and are ready change instead of vague platitude and promises.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#156

Post by landon32 »

tanilama wrote: post #54
dangerlibrary wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A false dichotomy. A third: Google is currently in hot water with the Department of Labor for their extreme gender pay gap and wants a PR win.

How is this a PR win? I don't think any company would love victory like this, not ever.

It's not a PR win, but it's a mitigated loss. They may have thought by not firing him they were endorsing his opinion, especially when many people were calling for him to be fired.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#157

Post by macspoofing »

amyjess wrote: post #138
paapi__gudiya wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole episode has been so disgusting and shows how regressive and authoritarian the mainstream tech community is. People can't work with someone because he has a different point of view about injustice in the society and has the courage to voice it respectfully? They would resort to violence against someone because they have a different point of view? If you can resort to violence against someone and get away wi…

As a woman, I could not work with an outspoken misogynist. As a lesbian, I could not work with an outspoken homophobe. As a Jew, I could not work with an outspoken antisemite. Forcing minorities and women to work with people who are bigoted against them is a recipe for a lawsuit.

This guy isn't a racist or a misogynist.

A better example is an atheist working with an evangelical. Both the atheist and the evangelical will have very strong opinions on each others' belief systems.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#158

Post by gbarc888 »

pseudalopex wrote: post #137
eco wrote: post #19

> Media outlets like TechCrunch, Gizmodo and Motherboard jumped on board to declare the memo an “Anti-Diversity Manifesto.” It appears that the ideological echo chamber extends beyond Google’s campus. As I look up and see this article flagged on HN (since unflagged). The points and ideas from his memo may be wrong or they may be right (or anywhere in between) but more important than this incident has been the reactio…

There have been several very active threads about this incident, the conversation has been mostly people talking past each other, the headline is inflammatory, and the article adds nothing new to the discussion.

It seems to be one of the only MSM outlets taking a neutral view.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#159

Post by brighteyes »

amyjess wrote: post #89
naturalgradient wrote: post #10

What this whole episode really seems to show is how authoritarianism has crept into our lives and how incredibly difficult it is to resist it even amongst highly educated people. I would wager that none of the people calling for this person to be personally ruined, expelled from society, terminated from their job and forever vilified as an outcast would view themselves as authoritarian. Not the Tweeters shaking with…

If I were to tell multiple co-workers to their face that they are inferior to me, I would be fired. This guy told a very large amount of his co-workers that they're inferior to him, and he posted it all over the Internet for everyone to see. You'd be hard pressed to find a company where leveling personal attacks against your co-workers isn't a fireable offense. Freedom of speech isn't the same thing as freedom from t…

> This guy told a very large amount of his co-workers that they're inferior to him

That would be very disturbing, but that's not what's written in the document. Saying that there are average differences between groups, and that therefore people should be treated as individuals, is not at all like saying that all individuals in one group are inferior to another.

Re: Google Can't Seem to Tolerate Diversity

#160

Post by milcron »

leereeves wrote: post #14
sidlls wrote: post #8

What's more likely: the author was fired for suggesting alternate methods of improving diversity at Google or the author was fired for repeating unsupported gender stereotypes, offering alternate methods that themselves played on gender stereotypes, and creating an environment in which he would not be able to effectively carry out his responsibilities as a result of promoting gender stereotypes?

> unsupported Did you only read the Gizmodo version that removed all the references? Here's a copy with the references: https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-I...

His "references" are mostly Wikipedia links.

I wish he had posted the anti-echo-chamber parts on their own, instead of using them to decorate an argument on gender differences.

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