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New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

nytimes.com

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Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#71

Post by mysterydip »

Is this just a problem with NYC's system, or is this an "elephant in the room" problem with mass transit?

If an individual's car breaks down, they can find alternate means to get where they need to go. If everyone were to depend on public transit in the future, how do you handle upgrades? I know the metro in DC will run extra bus routes for some down trains, but I think that's just for certain smaller repairs.

It's something I haven't really thought much about before. The simple answer is to have redundant equipment (tunnels, tracks, cars), but few would stomach the cost. Most likely it would just get used instead, in the same way that you can never alleviate traffic jams with more roads, you just get more people using them.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#72

Post by potatolicious »

aeorgnoieang wrote: post #65

Anyone know whether anyone's carefully considered simply adding new parallel systems, e.g. for signalling? I can completely sympathize with the difficulty of upgrading 24/7 critical infrastructure, especially given that mistakes can kill or injure people. I'd try to just deploy separate parallel systems instead. At a comically reduced scale, businesses migrating between ERPs (or similar line-of-business apps) often r…

This is what's actually happening to a large extent.

While CBTC signaling is being installed, the original fixed-block signaling remains in place. It's nearly impossible to do this otherwise - you'd have to shut the entire line down for the entire time it takes to install new signals - which could be years.

Once the new signal installation is complete the two systems may operate in parallel (with the fixed-block system acting as a possible backup if CBTC fails, and also so older trains can still run).

The issue is that with 24/7 operation, there is no consistent regular time where work like this can be done. It can only be done in short spurts (late-night shutdowns) or the work crews in-lined with train service, which has obvious safety concerns as well as drastically reducing the capacity of the line.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#73

Post by rb808 »

towndrunk wrote: post #44

Anyone know of a documentary on the New York subway? I would love to see all this old equipment and what they are really battling in order to keep it running.

There are some pics in a recent nytimes article. Looks incredibly old, especially if you compare all the computing power in the phones of its riders.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-...

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#75

Post by Sangermaine »

Larrikin wrote: post #26
rrdharan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems with NYC subway signaling have been very extensively covered in previous reporting that you might find interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-subway-relies-decade... "Even something as basic as a cable is an antique. Workers popped open a junction box to show a 70-year-old cloth-covered cable, due for the scrap heap next year,…

Then it should close at night. Pretty much every city with a subway system worth bragging about does. It always seemed strange to me that Philly is the only city I've been to that fully replaces the subway at night with buses.

>Then it should close at night.

No, it shouldn't, and I take it by this statement you don't live in NYC. I do, and have lived in Tokyo and other cities with excellent mass transit. While Tokyo's system is much, much better, it's pretty fantastic that I know I can always get a train home no matter what time it is, no matter where in the city I am, much faster than any ground vehicle would take me.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#76

Post by rb808 »

Nelkins wrote: post #69

The line about overcrowding being one of the major drivers behind delays doesn't hold much water. Ridership has essentially been flat or even declining in some areas[1] (peaked in early 2010s). Decreasing mean distance between failures in cars [2] (as well as mismanagement of crews & trains as mentioned in article) are among the main culprits. [1] http://web.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/ridership_sub_annua... [2] ht…

Are you sure? nytimes recently said its doubled. (thougcomparison to 40s is interesting)

> Subway ridership has risen dramatically since the 1990s, when about four million people used the system each day. Now it is nearly six million riders each day — the highest level since the 1940

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subw...

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#77

Post by programLyrique »

saosebastiao wrote: post #53
pavement wrote: post #21

A lot of what affects the NYC subway is the principle of the "Sick System." http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html The system is too essential for a stop-the-world overhaul, but so far gone, that only a stop-the-world overhaul can part the clouds. Without a hard flush of antiquated mission critical infrastructure, millions of turbulent eddies and vortices will ensure that the system is always afflicted by parasi…

Many of the world's oldest subways have solved this problem through the use of specialized technology transition teams whose sole job is to develop minimal downtime solutions to upgrading technology. I'm no expert on these technical teams...I merely know of their existence through my own personal obsessive curiosity about infrastructure. But at least in terms of having relatively modern performance and technology, Pa…

The subway of Paris usually has only two tracks. They have started making it automatic (and so they need to use a modern signalling system) and they seem to be successful at doing it without disrupting traffic too much: http://cometandnova.org/improving-service-through-automation... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro_Line_1#Automa...

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#78

Post by bogomipz »

>"Officials at the Metropolitan Transportation Authority acknowledged that the schedules were not being met, and they blamed overcrowding for the shortfall."

No, the overcrowding is the effect of the MTA not addressing massive increases in ridership over an almost 20 year period. The MTA likes to pretend publicly that the ridership boom came out of nowhere and blindsided everyone. However the increase in ridership has been occurring and been every since 1998.

"Between 1975and 1998, New York City subway ridership hovered between about 900 million and 1 billion riders annually. The net change between the annual ridership in 1975 and 1997 was about 100 million, an average increase of just over 4 million per year. However, 1997 was a turning point for the relatively stagnant ridership growth experienced by New York City’s subway system. In 1998,just after the introduction of the MetroCard, over 137 million more rides were taken than the year before. The boom continued for the next two years, during which time another 181 million rides had been added to the annual total. Over the next 15 years, the system continued to increase its ridership totals at an average of 25 million more rides per year. In 2015, subway rides totaled more than 1.7 billion."[1]

To make the current situation with chronically late trains worse there is no way to know when the next train is coming until you have paid for a fare and are standing down on the platform. Little good it does you then to find out that next train is not for 12 or 15 minutes.

The MTA could have put the electronic arrival boards up on the street level by the train entrance so that people could make an alternate choice such as to use a Citibike, taxi, bus or even just walk instead. The MTA decided to reserve that space to sell advertising however. Despite their press release you will not find the next arrival times on any of these. See:

http://www.mta.info/news/2012/03/29/digital-urban-panels-deb...

[1] https://wagner.nyu.edu/files/faculty/publications/State%20of...

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#79

Post by programLyrique »

chiph wrote: post #68
pavement wrote: post #21

A lot of what affects the NYC subway is the principle of the "Sick System." http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html The system is too essential for a stop-the-world overhaul, but so far gone, that only a stop-the-world overhaul can part the clouds. Without a hard flush of antiquated mission critical infrastructure, millions of turbulent eddies and vortices will ensure that the system is always afflicted by parasi…

Not a New Yorker, but what I heard was that the tunnels only have two tracks, and both are needed for daily operations. So you can't replace one when it wears out because of the service interruption. If they had made the tunnels wide enough for three tracks, they'd have a spare for when they do repairs on one of them. And give them a place to do a rolling-upgrade of old middle-20th century signaling equipment.

Actually, NY subway has 3 or even 4 tracks portions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_York_City_Subway_l... I think that's the reason why the New York's subway can operate during all night, because maintenance operations can happen on the other set of tracks.
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