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New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

nytimes.com

51–60 of 162 posts

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a perfect world there are four branches of government: Legislative, Judicial, Executive, Cranky Mass Transit Dictator

Well, we had Robert Moses and look how that turned out

He was the opposite of mass transit though. One can argue that if he had wielded his powers for good, that NYC would be much better off today.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#52
post #48

The biggest reason for these delays I've found over the years it the signaling system and headway spacing. Blocks on a railway system are designed to provide enough space and warning so that trains do not crash into each other. However, when you use line side signals and CTC (Centralized Train Control) to dispatch them, you end up with a set of rules that create spaces for occupancy that can easily be longer than the…

London Underground trains on the Victoria line are driven by computer and use a moving block system

this included the stations: you would have one train coming in the back as the previous train was still going out the front

apparently they special cased the stations to not do this, as this used to cause upset amongst the passengers!

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#53

A lot of what affects the NYC subway is the principle of the "Sick System." http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html The system is too essential for a stop-the-world overhaul, but so far gone, that only a stop-the-world overhaul can part the clouds. Without a hard flush of antiquated mission critical infrastructure, millions of turbulent eddies and vortices will ensure that the system is always afflicted by parasi…

Many of the world's oldest subways have solved this problem through the use of specialized technology transition teams whose sole job is to develop minimal downtime solutions to upgrading technology. I'm no expert on these technical teams...I merely know of their existence through my own personal obsessive curiosity about infrastructure. But at least in terms of having relatively modern performance and technology, Paris, Madrid, Hamburg, Tokyo, Berlin, Osaka, Barcelona, and even Moscow don't seem to have any problems. Some might run what appears to be really old equipment...but it runs on time without any significant downtime. And with the exception of Tokyo (which has severe overcrowding problems which exceed the natural limits of subways) and London (which has extreme geographic, geological, archeological, electrical, and real estate constraints), they have mostly never let these problems impact the daily service.

New York is probably the most easily upgraded of these legacy subway systems, due to the insistence of the original subway companies on triple tracking. Not only does the triple track allow for express trains, but it also allows for zero downtime maintenance during non-peak hours. The electrical systems aren't a barrier like those in some cities. Even Tokyo and London, which have worse constraints, have fared better. If technology transition teams exist, I haven't heard of them. Upgrade engineering appears to be outsourced. The costs that the MTA quotes for transition seem absurd. Once again, I'm no expert on the engineering involved, but the upgrade costs are approaching new construction costs in other countries.

We know we have a major cost problem in US transit infrastructure construction. But this is not just construction. We also have a problem with maintenance costs, operating costs, capital costs, etc. Everywhere you go in America, we have critical transit infrastructure that is hobbled by costs. Where is the cost management? Why can't we get system-wide cost audits? If annual audits are required of publicly listed companies, why isn't it required of public organizations funded by tax dollars?

I'm sick of the explanation that our problem is funding...its not. Our problem is mismanagement. When you manage your systems well, nobody has any problem sending money your way. The demand curve exists for government funding just as much as it does for markets. When you provide more for a given amount of money, you generally get more money. Give us better management.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#54

I used to take the 456 line on Lexington Ave. back and forth between Home & Work for the past 5 years. In January, the Q line on 86th st. opened, and although it takes me ~10 minutes longer each way, it is a MUCH more pleasant experience. The 456 is a nightmare, and I can tell you first hand, that it is crowded to a point where it is inhumane (imagine people literally fighting for a spot to have the "privilege" to sm…

I live in a much smaller city where my total commute each day is maybe 10 minutes to basically anywhere I need to go. How do you justify the long commutes? Do you pass the time somehow?

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems with NYC subway signaling have been very extensively covered in previous reporting that you might find interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-subway-relies-decade... "Even something as basic as a cable is an antique. Workers popped open a junction box to show a 70-year-old cloth-covered cable, due for the scrap heap next year,…

Then it should close at night. Pretty much every city with a subway system worth bragging about does. It always seemed strange to me that Philly is the only city I've been to that fully replaces the subway at night with buses.

Even though trains are scheduled through the night, they shut lines down pretty frequently during overnight and weekend hours and replace them with bus service.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#56

A lot of what affects the NYC subway is the principle of the "Sick System." http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html The system is too essential for a stop-the-world overhaul, but so far gone, that only a stop-the-world overhaul can part the clouds. Without a hard flush of antiquated mission critical infrastructure, millions of turbulent eddies and vortices will ensure that the system is always afflicted by parasi…

Many of the world's oldest subways have solved this problem through the use of specialized technology transition teams whose sole job is to develop minimal downtime solutions to upgrading technology. I'm no expert on these technical teams...I merely know of their existence through my own personal obsessive curiosity about infrastructure. But at least in terms of having relatively modern performance and technology, Pa…

> Give us better management.

It's gonna be hard considering how many independent and adversarial managers the NYC subway has.

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This phenomenon is almost comical with the NJTransit Northeast Corridor lines into NYC. They frequently cluster two inbound Northeast Corridor trains (all the way from Trenton) with the express coming 3-4 minutes after the local (having left Trenton 20 minutes later). Even on weekends, the local is frequently standing room only (usually totally packed) whereas the express will have plenty of free seats. At Secaucus J…

I commuted my first year out of undergrad from Central NJ. At the time, it was very frustrating because NJ Transit is so unreliable. All the stresses of a given day could metastasize to a point where a transit nightmare could make you break. Now, take adults who pay one of the nations highest property taxes, throw in confusion as to where their dollars are going (they thought infrastructure was definitely a bucket),…

Those taxpaying adults also manage to vote in people like Chris Christie, who decided the "infrastructure bucket" didn't include transit (and that the allocated transit funds would be better sent elsewhere).

Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All

#60
post #32

A lot of what affects the NYC subway is the principle of the "Sick System." http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html The system is too essential for a stop-the-world overhaul, but so far gone, that only a stop-the-world overhaul can part the clouds. Without a hard flush of antiquated mission critical infrastructure, millions of turbulent eddies and vortices will ensure that the system is always afflicted by parasi…

Any sufficiently complex system will always run in degraded mode, because the individual mtbf rates for distinct elements will compound. Even a stop-the-world overhaul can't fix that, it will reduce the failure rate but it won't get rid of it. The trick to running such a system is to assume it is broken and still figure out ways of providing continuous service.

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