Why would it take 50 years to install signalling across the system ? This doesn't sound right at all.
Unions.
New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All
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Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All
#12Why would it take 50 years to install signalling across the system ? This doesn't sound right at all.
The problems with NYC subway signaling have been very extensively covered in previous reporting that you might find interesting:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-subway-relies-decade...
"Even something as basic as a cable is an antique.
Workers popped open a junction box to show a 70-year-old cloth-covered cable, due for the scrap heap next year, connected to newer rubber-covered wires."
Basically, the system is so old that an incremental retrofit is very complicated to achieve without full shutdown. Remember the overall NYC subway system is the only train system that actually operates 24-7 so maintenance scheduling is also much more involved.
Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All
#13I used to take the 456 line on Lexington Ave. back and forth between Home & Work for the past 5 years. In January, the Q line on 86th st. opened, and although it takes me ~10 minutes longer each way, it is a MUCH more pleasant experience. The 456 is a nightmare, and I can tell you first hand, that it is crowded to a point where it is inhumane (imagine people literally fighting for a spot to have the "privilege" to sm…
The 456 is the reason I stopped commuting to work before 10. Taking the L from where I live today isn't much different. The trick I've found is that if the sign says there are two trains incoming that are within a minute of each other, always take the second train. People will self-sardine themselves on the first and the second with be mostly empty.
Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All
#14Why would it take 50 years to install signalling across the system ? This doesn't sound right at all.
First they have to make new rolling stock, as the new system only works on post-2000s trains.
Second, MTA estimate about 16 miles of track could be upgraded per year. They have 665 miles of revenue track (850 including non-revenue), so it would take 41.56 years just to convert the revenue track. The Regional Plan Association wants MTA to convert 21 miles of track per year, leading to 31.66 years to cover all the revenue track.
Add the time to create new rolling stock, any additional time for any additional track in the next 30+ years, and extra time in case they go over the original estimation. Easily between 35 and 50 years just to convert the revenue-generating track.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signaling_of_the_New_York_City...
Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All
#15I used to take the 456 line on Lexington Ave. back and forth between Home & Work for the past 5 years. In January, the Q line on 86th st. opened, and although it takes me ~10 minutes longer each way, it is a MUCH more pleasant experience. The 456 is a nightmare, and I can tell you first hand, that it is crowded to a point where it is inhumane (imagine people literally fighting for a spot to have the "privilege" to sm…
The 456 is the reason I stopped commuting to work before 10. Taking the L from where I live today isn't much different. The trick I've found is that if the sign says there are two trains incoming that are within a minute of each other, always take the second train. People will self-sardine themselves on the first and the second with be mostly empty.
That was my biggest lesson of the L or the 4/5/6. If you wait, the next train will be much, MUCH less crowded.
Another trick is that if I'm at Union Square trying to get into Brooklyn on the L and the station is packed, it ends up being faster and more comfortable to take the L backwards to 8th ave, and then grab a seat on the Brooklyn bound L at the 8th ave terminus.
Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All
#16Why would it take 50 years to install signalling across the system ? This doesn't sound right at all.
475 stations, 840 miles of track, the signals have to be 'hot patched' as the system still needs to keep running 24/7/365.
50 years might be an over estimate, but projects like these tend to slip their deadlines.
[Edit] peterwwillis's answer is much more thorough than mine https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14948951
Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All
#17Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All
#18Why would it take 50 years to install signalling across the system ? This doesn't sound right at all.
1) Much of the system is very old, some of it dating back to the 30s. Replacing those parts is very complicated, it's not a 1:1 process. The improvement comes because new signals work under different assumptions. The current signals are basically automated versions of people standing with flags. Partially interfacing the old with the new is very complicated.
2) Downtime basically shuts down the city. Even nights and weekends interruption in service causes major disruptions. The surface streets are at maximum capacity, there is no way to get that many people in and out of downtown and midtown without the subway.
Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All
#19Why would it take 50 years to install signalling across the system ? This doesn't sound right at all.
The problems with NYC subway signaling have been very extensively covered in previous reporting that you might find interesting: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-... http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-subway-relies-decade... "Even something as basic as a cable is an antique. Workers popped open a junction box to show a 70-year-old cloth-covered cable, due for the scrap heap next year,…
> actually operates 24-7
Good one. They routinely shut down lines and stations for hours/days at a time. The L got shut down between Bedford & 8th Ave for the entirety of Memorial Day weekend. Even when lines are running perfectly, at night they only run once every 30-60 minutes. To riders the changes feel arbitrary and are impossible to predict. I've been stuck dozens of times in random places because I tried to use the wrong line at the wrong time. The only real way to know there's a problem ahead is to have the privilege of riding that line on a regular basis and reading the signs they post. If you look around almost every station will have posters denoting some change that's ongoing or coming up.
Re: New York’s Subways Are Not Just Delayed, Some Trains Don’t Run at All
#20I used to take the 456 line on Lexington Ave. back and forth between Home & Work for the past 5 years. In January, the Q line on 86th st. opened, and although it takes me ~10 minutes longer each way, it is a MUCH more pleasant experience. The 456 is a nightmare, and I can tell you first hand, that it is crowded to a point where it is inhumane (imagine people literally fighting for a spot to have the "privilege" to sm…
This is why it is a real human tragedy that the MTA is literally the worst transit system in the world when it comes to new construction. Millions of lives could made better if they could do capital projects in the time and costs that cities elsewhere are able to do them in.