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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#271

Post by AnthonyMouse »

coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

> If you don't agree to their rules you don't play in their sandbox.

And if you make choices they have consequences. Those consequences include that people in the west will lose respect for your company, complain about it, patronize competitors, propose laws to punish it, etc.

If that puts the company in a bind, good. They're a multi-billion dollar international corporation. They have to choose between morals and profits a thousand times a day. It should be as hard as possible for them to make the immoral choice. And if they make it anyway, it should cost them something.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#272

Post by archagon »

humanrebar wrote: post #255
archagon wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I necessarily agree with this decision, but: "The version of Article 19 in the ICCPR later amends this by stating that the exercise of these rights carries 'special duties and responsibilities' and may 'therefore be subject to certain restrictions' when necessary '[f]or respect of the rights or reputation of others' or '[f]or the protection of national security or of public order (order public), or of public…

> Freedom of speech can be limited even as a universal human right. They are inalienable rights because it's wrong to limit them, not because a group voted to recognize them. The ICCPR's position is interesting to compare and contrast to what is right, not because it's the authority on what is right.

In the end, any and all rights, inalienable or otherwise, are arrived at by consensus, not extracted from the binding fibers of the universe.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#273

Post by travmatt »

asdfologist wrote: post #181
travmatt wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call China a dictatorship... it's an authoritarian state, but calling Xi Jinping a dictator isn't really accurate.

What can a dictator do that Xi Jinping can't?

Exercise unilateral control of government policy. Chinese political power is vested through the Politburo Standing Committee of the Communist Party of China. Although Jinping is first among equals, his exercise of political power is constrained by the other six committee members, all of whom exercise real political power themselves, and it is the Politburo, not Jinping himself, which controls China. Although Jinping has been consolidating power quite successfully, this does not qualify him to be a dictator quite yet.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#274

Post by natch »

tziki wrote: post #204
enraged_camel wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get your complaint at all. What would you rather have them do? What would "sticking to their guns" involve? Or would you rather have them not "make so much noise" about social justice?

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

Google's phones aren't made in China? And is Google Play not in China? With Google I always wonder where the PR ends and the reality begins.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#275

Post by dis-sys »

intro-b wrote: post #249
frenchy wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet using a VPN is still somehow "against the will of the people" ...

You'll notice the same usernames and patterns of argumentation every time there is an article with comments remotely criticizing (or even questioning) China.

So far, most of my comments regarding those "criticizing/questioning" China stuff are mostly about the censorship/GFW, because I strongly believe the GFW is a protectionism tool to protect and grew the Chinese Internet sector.

Am I allowed to have my own opinion on that matter when I am a Chinese living in China working in that sector? Maybe your definition of freedom/free speech is a pretty censored one?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#276

Post by dilap »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #271
coldcode wrote: post #138

You cannot do business in China without doing what they tell you. Period. Either you do it or you leave. I work for a big company (you would all know) and we have a large business unit in China, they own 52% of it. They decide what goes in and how customers can use it. We don't get to decide anything without government approval. It's so easy to claim the West shouldn't do what the leadership of China wants in China,…

> If you don't agree to their rules you don't play in their sandbox. And if you make choices they have consequences. Those consequences include that people in the west will lose respect for your company, complain about it, patronize competitors, propose laws to punish it, etc. If that puts the company in a bind, good. They're a multi-billion dollar international corporation. They have to choose between morals and pro…

You really think the mature thing to do is to cut off an entire country because you disagree with their political system? That seems very extreme to me.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#277

Post by Clubber »

FRex wrote: post #219
Clubber wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you want Apple to do? Leave the China market and allow a government owned phone company to take the market share? How is that scenario better for anyone in the US or China? I mean being angry that the Chinese government isn't great at human rights is one thing, but to point that anger at Apple is a bit misguided, and what do you suggest that would actually make the problem better?

I don't know. That's why it's even a problem. If there was an easy answer then Apple would just do it (or not) and there would be no discussion or dilemma to be had and we'd all applaud them or shit on them depending on if they did the right thing or not. It's a very tough problem because on one side isolating is bad and allows the oppressive governments to create 'us with them' rhetoric and replace foreign companies…

You also have to consider China is a sovereign country with their own laws and culture. Who is Apple (or the US for that matter) to dictate what those laws or cultures are? Consider the US has many laws and practices that are considered human rights abuses domestically, much less abroad. Among these is the practice of solitary confinement, police allowed to withhold evidence during interrogation, overreaching sentencing, privacy abuses, etc.

All I'm saying I guess is don't make Apple out to be a bad guy because they can't wade through that mess. I wouldn't expect them to. One thing is they seem to care more about secure devices than any other tech company I'm aware of. They aren't perfect by any means, but they've shown that they are willing to put their neck out with the San Bernandino thing and others.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#278

Post by AnthonyMouse »

dilap wrote: post #276
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you don't agree to their rules you don't play in their sandbox. And if you make choices they have consequences. Those consequences include that people in the west will lose respect for your company, complain about it, patronize competitors, propose laws to punish it, etc. If that puts the company in a bind, good. They're a multi-billion dollar international corporation. They have to choose between morals and pro…

You really think the mature thing to do is to cut off an entire country because you disagree with their political system? That seems very extreme to me.

You're proposing a false dichotomy. If the choice is to do evil or leave then they should leave, but is it? How sure are you that a company with thousands of employees and billions of dollars could not find a third way if sufficient pressure was applied on them to do so, instead of us excusing their defection as reasonable?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#279

Post by mark_l_watson »

the8472 wrote: post #80
janandonly wrote: post #2

What happens in China now could happen in 5 years in the rest of the world. For "security" reasons or "fight agains terrorism", while it's really a fight between those in power and those who want power :-( The need for IPFS, webRTC and other non-centralized protocols becomes more pressing every day, to defend everyone who is stuck in between.

The UK is already rolling out more and more censorship infrastructure for example. All ISPs have porn-filters enabled by default (which you can opt-out) and additional block lists that you have to circumvent through technical means (e.g. wikipedia was blocked due to the Scorpion's virgin killer album cover). Now they also want to expand those filters to cover "extremism".

+1 the USA and UK are definitely on the path of governmental control of content/privacy on the Internet.

A bit off topic: I am in the USA and it surprises be constantly how most of my friends and family buy into American exceptionalism. Mostly, they don't travel much to foreign countries so they don't realize that the USA is one of MANY great places to live. The world for the most part is an awesome place but the news media convinces people otherwise. Re: China: even though China has problems with internal ethnic violence (source: I took an online class in English covering history, economics, and politics taught by three professors in China) my impression of people in China when I was there is that they are generally happy with their society. It is not my place to tell other people what form of government they should have.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#280

Post by Zhenya »

natch wrote: post #274
tziki wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could always do what Google did and abandon China.

Google's phones aren't made in China? And is Google Play not in China? With Google I always wonder where the PR ends and the reality begins.

Google Play is not in China.

Their phones are made many places. Lately in Taiwan and Korea.

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