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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#81

Post by sametmax »

microcolonel wrote: post #70
sametmax wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legality and morality are different things. Your shareholders may have the right to ask you to fire loads of people, or be a patent troll, but the choice is still yours. But let's be fair, how many individuals, given the choice, would choose making a better world over money ? Probably not event most people in this thread. We are weak creatures.

> but the choice is still yours. Not really, look up fiduciary duty. When you trade publicly, you have a special form of contract to the shareholding trusts, and in turn to the shareholder. If you breach this, you are liable for damages, and likely to be replaced by somebody who isn't going to make the same mistake. This is a vital part of publicly traded companies.

You can make the choice upfront, not at the last minute. When entering the chinese market, you know what you're up to.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#82

Post by seanmcdirmid »

vetinari wrote: post #68
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use of what aboutism and moral highground logical fallacies look extremely crass, especially on HN.

Yes, we prefer do as I say, not as I do here. /s

No. Whataboutism fallacies were pioneered by the Soviet Union during the Cold War, but when used by someone in the west, they just come off as looking extremely insecure and desperate for a workable argument.

So it is a cultural difference. While whataboutisms and moral high ground fallacies are acceptable in the east, in the west they just signal insecurity and desperation.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#83

Post by sho »

microcolonel wrote: post #27
maxxxxx wrote: post #20

That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now.

> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your governmen…

You might not like the (totally valid) point this comment makes but that doesn't stop it being true. Stop with the downvotes.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#84

Post by leppr »

humanrebar wrote: post #73
pipio21 wrote: post #65

Just common sense, given that the China gobertment has made usage of VPNs illegal. What do you expect? People in China could continue using app store accounts created in other countries as usual. And most educated people continue using VPNs too. Normal people are becoming experts in encription, security... It worries me more that countries like the UK and the US want to follow China, in that order.

I expect Apple to respect universal human rights regardless of the context. Freedom of speech is foundational. And this isn't a China-vs-the-West thing. The idea that people deserve and need to be able to communicate freely predates the current governments of both China and the U.S.

It's been known for years that Apple is actively against freedom of speech when it comes to its marketplace. Why would you expect it to make an exception for China ?

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#85

Post by vetinari »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #82
vetinari wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we prefer do as I say, not as I do here. /s

No. Whataboutism fallacies were pioneered by the Soviet Union during the Cold War, but when used by someone in the west, they just come off as looking extremely insecure and desperate for a workable argument. So it is a cultural difference. While whataboutisms and moral high ground fallacies are acceptable in the east, in the west they just signal insecurity and desperation.

No. The term whataboutism was used as a way to disregard an argument, without addressing it's point.

It is usable only from the position of arrogance. It has no place in a honest discussion.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#86

Post by [deleted] »

microcolonel wrote: post #70
sametmax wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legality and morality are different things. Your shareholders may have the right to ask you to fire loads of people, or be a patent troll, but the choice is still yours. But let's be fair, how many individuals, given the choice, would choose making a better world over money ? Probably not event most people in this thread. We are weak creatures.

> but the choice is still yours. Not really, look up fiduciary duty. When you trade publicly, you have a special form of contract to the shareholding trusts, and in turn to the shareholder. If you breach this, you are liable for damages, and likely to be replaced by somebody who isn't going to make the same mistake. This is a vital part of publicly traded companies.

[deleted]

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#87

Post by sho »

maxxxxx wrote: post #61
microcolonel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your governmen…

I don't necessarily blame corporations for this. My point is that we shouldn't look at corporations as agents for freedom. A lot of people seem to be doing this. In the end they will fall in line with whoever is running the country. As long as there is money to be made.

> My point is that we shouldn't look at corporations as agents for freedom

It's mind-boggling that this even needs to be stated. Of course we should not. Anyone who does needs to step back and seriously re-examine how they look at the world, because this is an intensely false presupposition.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#88

Post by LoSboccacc »

sametmax wrote: post #52
LoSboccacc wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's extremely disingenuous. Any profit left on the table will be exploited by the next corporation in line. The loop has to be closed by the people when they get mature enough... and if that's what they want: there are few things more bigot than someone measuring with the west meter other countries' success.

"If I'm not mugging the grandma, somebody else will" is the most disingenuous excuse of all.

You're confusing morality and legality, and it seems you're in good company around here. But it's not the role of corporate to white knighting a country cultural revolution.

Still, interestig to see a nice quip at a completely wrong scale/context captivate such a large audience.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#89

Post by dis-sys »

doguozkan wrote: post #14
geokon wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just on a positive note - HTTPS has done wonders BC it destroys any granularity in censorship. For instance BC English Wikipedia isn't blocked you are able to look up any topic and authorities have no way of knowing which topic you've looked up. They could block all of Wikipedia ofcourse, but it'd be overly draconian, hard to justify and people would be upset (though itll happen eventually. They're working on a wikip…

Wikipedia (also apparently expressvpn.com) is already blocked in Turkey, and I am indeed very upset about it, but there's nothing I can do about it and I think it'd be the same with the Chinese. Such oppressive governments really won't mind denying their citizens access to the single greatest source of information for their citizens if it plays into their hand.

could you please stop representing 1.4B Chinese? if the government is so bad, why there is no systematic resistance given the fact that Chinese people had a long history of fighting the repressive regimes?
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