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Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

nytimes.com

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Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#51

Post by seanmcdirmid »

marak830 wrote: post #38
microcolonel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your governmen…

Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading in a country that performs (x) Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either way: Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps…

Those companies exist, but selection bias already excludes them from the countries in question; e.g. Google.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#52

Post by sametmax »

LoSboccacc wrote: post #45
marak830 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading in a country that performs (x) Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either way: Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps…

That's extremely disingenuous. Any profit left on the table will be exploited by the next corporation in line. The loop has to be closed by the people when they get mature enough... and if that's what they want: there are few things more bigot than someone measuring with the west meter other countries' success.

"If I'm not mugging the grandma, somebody else will" is the most disingenuous excuse of all.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#53

Post by threeseed »

marak830 wrote: post #38
microcolonel wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now. Well, if you want your government to be powerful enough to enforce laws against corporations, then corporations will not be powerful enough to defy your governmen…

Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading in a country that performs (x) Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either way: Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps…

What's the "x" though in this case ? Censorship ?

Because USA, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Germany etc all censor content on the internet.

In fact most of the world do to some extent.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#55

Post by vetinari »

threeseed wrote: post #46
maxxxxx wrote: post #20

That's why corporations will never help against dictatorship. They may do it if it's convenient but in the end they will prioritize money over everything else and fall in line with dictatorships. Happened during the Nazi time, it's happening in China now.

This is simplistic and short term thinking. Companies can help to progress the cause of free speech in oppressive lands over the long term. Yes, Apple is not going to facilitate VPN usage but the wealth of content and learning opportunities provided by mobile apps is also worth something.

> Companies can help to progress the cause of free speech in oppressive lands

Only if it makes business sense - i.e. changing government in that "oppressive lands" will lead to more business. If it would lead to less profit, or risk existing positions, nothing will be done.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#56

Post by sametmax »

microcolonel wrote: post #42
marak830 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading in a country that performs (x) Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either way: Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps…

In many places where companies are incorporated, that is likely an illegal decision to make for your company. Unless you can argue that the loss of sales in that jurisdiction will be less than the loss in sales abroad (from loss of consumer trust), you probably can't do it. In addition, they likely have ongoing procurement contracts with some companies in China which they would need to continue honouring. In principl…

Legality and morality are different things. Your shareholders may have the right to ask you to fire loads of people, or be a patent troll, but the choice is still yours.

But let's be fair, how many individuals, given the choice, would choose making a better world over money ? Probably not event most people in this thread. We are weak creatures.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#57

Post by seanmcdirmid »

threeseed wrote: post #31
jahnu wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent didn't suggest otherwise. Maybe it's better, i.e. the right thing to do, to leave a market in an oppressive land? Personally I think more of Google for doing that.

Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The USA is hardly a shining example of a country the rest of the world should be following right now. It is doing plenty of oppressive things that many of us in the rest of world don't agree with e.g. Paris accord, incarceration rates, threats against the press. I don't agree with what China is doing but the "right thing to do" is never so simple.

The use of what aboutism and moral highground logical fallacies look extremely crass, especially on HN.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#58

Post by seanmcdirmid »

melling wrote: post #23
jahnu wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parent didn't suggest otherwise. Maybe it's better, i.e. the right thing to do, to leave a market in an oppressive land? Personally I think more of Google for doing that.

Google went back to China. They have offices and employees. https://www.cnbc.com/2016/01/07/google-is-going-on-a-hiring-...

Those offices were never shutdown...well the one in wudaokou wasn't. They did leave the search market, and most of their services are blocked by the gfw, but google never "left china" completely.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#59

Post by marak830 »

threeseed wrote: post #53
marak830 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or perhaps corporations could have a little backbone. Perhaps in their mission statements say that they will prefer to lose profits if it means not trading in a country that performs (x) Edit: (sametmax) I can't seem to reply - I think the chains too long ? Either way: Doesn't that mean we should actually be a little upset ? Look I'm no sjw freaking out over everything, nor do I run around scrwing boycot, but perhaps…

What's the "x" though in this case ? Censorship ? Because USA, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Germany etc all censor content on the internet. In fact most of the world do to some extent.

X would be anything we disagree with. I'm an Aussie, living in Japan, mostly working for us companies (plus the occasional Indian company), I see many forms of censorship, under many different names.

I won't stand up and say I know the solution, but I certainly see the problems.

Re: Apple Removes Apps from China Store That Help Internet Users Evade Censorship

#60

Post by microcolonel »

adamnemecek wrote: post #37

Hey Timmy, what was all that talk about customer security? https://www.apple.com/customer-letter/ And here I was, almost believing you. You're a coward.

> You're a coward.

No, he's a Chief Executive. If the Chief Executive can make more money by saying Apple is going to bat for gay people (in America, so bold! so brave! /s) or for your privacy, then the Chief is going to say it.

You're at fault for taking them on their word. What you needed was a contract, not an open letter.

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