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Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

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Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#271
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's suppose that false rape accusations are a wide-spread problem. They aren't, they are far rarer then actual cases of rape, but let's suppose that they are. How exactly do you propose to deal with them, without a chilling effect on reporting real rapes? It is a crime that is notoriously hard to convict, to the point where most victims keep silent.

A problem can be serious without being wide-spread, and this is a great example -- false accusations (of any crime), though rare, sow the seeds of doubt in the testimony of every accuser. Every widely publicized false accusation (Duke lacrosse rape, etc) causes hundreds or perhaps even thousands of real rapists to go free and rape more people, since jurors take the possibility of a false accusation as "reasonable dou…

> Every widely publicized false accusation (Duke lacrosse rape, etc) causes hundreds or perhaps even thousands of real rapists to go free and rape more people

This seems like almost certainly an exaggeration, and I think an unhelpful one.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#272
post #36

This world is getting so fucked up. We can't crucify people for "hitting on" or other somewhat tame behavior because we have nothing left to throw at the real offenders. Conversely, people benefit on both sides of the equation; using sex to their advantage or weaponizing allegations like this. Sexual assualt is REAL and should be punished. We need to focus on a balance between being human and being a predator. People…

False accusations should be punished with the same penalty as the accuser tried to put upon the innocent. Until that happens, people will see no reason to stop false accusations that they think will help them.

This has been a feature of several legal systems, at least since Hammurabi.

Another interesting concept during the inquisition was that the accused, before he knew who accused him, had the opportunity to list all his mortal enemies, and if the accuser was among them he was set free.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False accusations are the ones proven to be false; and not every single one that couldn't be confirmed by court or by a jury.

Which suggests an obvious course of action: - true accusation - punish the perpetrator - false accusation - punish the accuser - unable to confirm either way - nothing happens I still don't understand why some people have so much trouble with this concept and want to bias towards "guilty until proven innocent" thinking. And yes, I know that in civil cases in the US, it's "preponderance of the evidence" and not "presu…

  I still don't understand why some people have so
  much trouble with this concept
Having sex with independent third-party witnesses or video recording remains a minority activity. So any attacker with half a brain can ensure it's the victim's word against theirs.

From there it's a simple question of our willingness to let the guilty go free vs. our willingness to see the innocent wrongly punished. This is known as Blackstone's Ratio [1] and it dates to the 1760s.

Needless to say, there's a certain political equilibrium here; if you'll let off 1000 guilty people to avoid 1 wrongful conviction, you'll have a thousand victims and their families campaigning for tougher punishments for every 1 wrongfully convicted person campaigning in the opposite direction.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_formulation

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#274
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, this is not that hard, people need to understand the rules. First, the heuristics. If it would be extraordinarily awkward and/or conceivably career impacting for someone to decline a romantic advance then that advance should not be made, period, because it represents exploiting a power imbalance (even if unknowingly!) and throwing sex and romance into the situation. The only time in any scenario related to the wo…

> people need to understand the rules. 1. Be attractive. 2. Don't be unattractive. Two simple rules to not commit sexual harassment.

No, they aren't. Sexual harassment includes unwanted advances, and attractiveness to the specific target has some role in whether an advances is unwanted or not, but sexual harassment includes lots of behaviors that are not unwanted (by the person to whom they are directed) sexual advances (an advance desired by the person to whom it is directed may easily be, or be part of, sexual harassment of third parties when conducted within a workplace context) or even sexual advances at all, and merely being attractive itself doesn't make all sexual advances wanted, in any case.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is already in jail because of a false rape allegation, is their situation improved if the only person who can get them released would be jailed for doing so?

If they are removed from prison, then yes, their situation improves.

Perhaps I was too succinct in the point I was trying to make.

The reason we don't punish people for retracting wrongful allegations is because we want people to retract wrongful allegations.

If you're in jail on a false rape claim, you'd rather the accuser went free and you were released; than that you stayed in jail because the accuser didn't want to take your place.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#276
post #260
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The claim was a descriptive one: "This policy has this bad side effect." That claim is provably false. I explained why, using examples. > You seem to have taken it as a prescriptive one: "We should do the exact opposite of this policy, as hard as we can." That cannot possibly be concluded from what I said. My claim is that when it's proven that people lie (i.e. fraudster, as I said), ignoring those lies is corrupti…

I'm not interested in talking about your claim. I'm talking about how you replied to someone else's claim. > That claim is provably false. I explained why, using examples. No you didn't. You gave some examples where the proposed policy would not have the side effect. You didn't show that it would never have the side effect. > That cannot possibly be concluded from what I said. "The exact opposite of this policy", in…

> You didn't show that it would never have the side effect.

I used the example of insurance fraud. Please pay attention.

Do we prosecute insurance fraud? Yes. Do such prosecutions dissuade victims from making real claims? No.

Or maybe you think that sexual assault is somehow magic. That prosecuting proven fraudsters in that case will somehow dissuade real victims from making claims. If so, you have to prove your position.

I've already proven that no such correlation exists in other situations.

> Why were you talking about "the idea that those people should be let off" if you agree that peteretep never suggested letting people off?

He did implicitly. If he's against charging fraudsters (for whatever reason), he's for letting them off.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#277
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't in dispute? In what sense? I'd dispute it in this sense: women, like humans of any gender, are more likely to apply different standards based on pre-existing status (e.g. whether they're friends already or not) but not to the degree that as a rule they'd welcome a sexual advance from one co-worker and not an identical one from another based simply on attractiveness, or that they'd consider the unwanted one h…

If you define sexual assault/harassment including term " undesirable/unwanted sexual advances" and accept attractiveness to be one of factors influencing evaluation of another person as potential mate, it becomes not that hard to see lower limits for actions to be labelled "unwanted" as varying based on attractiveness of advancing person regardless of gender or social setting. This would directly translate to welcome…

You don't think it's likely that women can view a man as being attractive and still not want sexual advances from him? How about possible? That humans aren't purely rational does not imply irrational behavior is the rule.

Your comment reads to me as asserting that women are basically incapable of moderating their behavior based on sexual desire.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False accusations should be punished with the same penalty as the accuser tried to put upon the innocent. Until that happens, people will see no reason to stop false accusations that they think will help them.

This has the side-effect that real victims are put off from filing charges, which is generally thought to be not a good thing.

The standard of evidence should be the same as that of any other crime - I.e. Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you locked a person in a cage for 10 years, you would be considered a horrible person. It's no different if you get other people to do it for you. A truly false accusation is a terrible crime that must be punished like any other. But it must be proven false beyond reasonable doubt just like any other crime.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They aren't, they are far rarer then actual cases of rape This is not a statement of fact, that's an assumption you've made. Actual studies of this are rare and usually bitterly disputed, but part of the reason they're rare is that they tend to reveal alarmingly high false reporting rates. I mean truly disturbingly high. If you look at cases which are proven to be false, the rate is usually suggested to be somewher…

> The most famous study (by Kanin)[..] And that study is deeply flawed: that one small midwestern police department used polygraphs on accusers. That's a practice that has long been shunned because (a) polygraphs are (now) known to usually find the investigator's opinion reflected in statistical noise, and (b) the victims (rightfully) see the test as an accusation and prefer to recant for fear of prosecution. The stu…

I'm aware of all the criticisms of the Kanin study. None of them seem valid.

If the USA believes polygraphs are unreliable they should be banned from all usage, for all types of crimes and government screening. That hasn't happened.

Instead, people who didn't like Kanin's conclusions - and noted that many rape accusers prefer to drop their accusations rather than take a polygraph test - decided it should be banned for that specific crime only. This is not internally consistent but is consistent with the long-term trend towards trying to increase the number of rape reports.

The critics then retroactively claimed the usage of this technique made the entire study invalid, which it does not do. These people are actually trying to subtly argue something different and much more extreme - that US police statistics and records for rape accusations in that entire period are completely worthless due to the use of polygraphs and therefore no conclusions can be drawn about the accuracy of rape reports during this time at all. This also isn't the case. Attrition between rape reports and prosecution is extremely high in other western countries that don't use lie detectors, and there is attrition at every stage of the pipeline. Offering to use a polygraph and having some complainants decide to drop their cooperation entirely is just one source of attrition amongst many.

The Kanin study is utterly damning on many levels and aligns with the self-reported perceptions of police (that false accusations are very common), not just in that study town but across the USA and in other countries as well, like the UK.

> The study mostly used the investigator's judgement

That is not correct. The study only marked a rape complaint as false if the accuser stated it was false. Cases where the investigator concluded it was false were not counted.

This standard is clearly far too strict - women who made provably false claims and steadfastly refuse to ever admit it would not be counted in this statistic, thus the 40% figure for that study must be too low when using a more reasonable definition of false claim.

> Question: if you go to 100 actual false accusers ten years after that incident, and ask them "Did you falsely accuse X of rape back then?". Do you really believe that 40% would be stupid enough to tell you?

It might be worth reading the original study. It is here:

https://ia800209.us.archive.org/4/items/FalseRapeAllegations...

The answer is yes, 41% said they lied. I don't know where your 10 year requirement came from. Most cases were resolved as false far quicker than that, usually because inconsistencies in the stories surfaced very quickly. As you can see from the case files the study quotes directly, admission that the story was false is usually accompanied by an explanation of why they did it and the study shows almost all false accusations were motivated by just three reasons.

I don't know why you think this requires stupidity. Prosecution for making false rape claims nearly never happens. It is extremely safe to admit you lied. But irritating the police makes it much less safe. It makes more sense to admit you lied quickly than to drag it out and risk the police deciding to prosecute for perversion of justice.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#280
post #36

This world is getting so fucked up. We can't crucify people for "hitting on" or other somewhat tame behavior because we have nothing left to throw at the real offenders. Conversely, people benefit on both sides of the equation; using sex to their advantage or weaponizing allegations like this. Sexual assualt is REAL and should be punished. We need to focus on a balance between being human and being a predator. People…

Compare the definition of harassment: Persistent attacks and criticism causing worry and distress or deliberate pestering or annoying. With the definition of sexual harassment: The making of unwanted and offensive sexual advances or of sexually offensive remarks or acts, especially by one in a superior or supervisory position or when acquiescence to such behavior is a condition of continued employment, promotion, or…

It always seemed to me, as outsider, that sex in the US culture is a single topic that is especially uncomfortable to people, far more than in Europe. Just look at the TV/movies or social media rules: you can show blood, violence, guns, all kinds of criminal or deviant behavior, but any kind of nudity will set off alarms, to the point that we need to defend mothers' rights to breastfeed in public because nipples are somehow offensive? And if someone can be upset by mother breastfeeding a baby, then why be surprised that someone else is easily upset by unwanted sexual context of a joke or a conversation? That's simply what happens when society suppresses sexuality as something completely inappropriate outside of bedroom or academical discussions. And also alienation of people doesn't really help, our private space is getting bigger and bigger everyday, and we're more and more intimidated by any casual human contact. Being a hard-core introvert I sort of like it better that way, but that has a consequences that you need to respect other people's right to not give a damn about you, too.
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