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Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

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Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#71

Post by jpttsn »

curun1r wrote: post #62
kbart wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this logic, we could abolish legal system at all and rely on anonymous accusations and public opinion to do all the bidding, because you know, there are real killers/rapers/thieves/robbers etc. out there and the accusation might be true.

On the contrary, we're left with a social remedy to a problem specifically when we don't have laws that governing a specific behavior. Our morality is not limited to what we codify into law. You might even argue that the court of public opinion is the tip of the spear that helps us determine what should and shouldn't be covered by laws. And, by the way, we do rely on public opinion to do our bidding in the justice sy…

I hope that's not how the judge explains it to the jurors.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#72

Post by MichaelBurge »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #57
wand3r wrote: post #36

This world is getting so fucked up. We can't crucify people for "hitting on" or other somewhat tame behavior because we have nothing left to throw at the real offenders. Conversely, people benefit on both sides of the equation; using sex to their advantage or weaponizing allegations like this. Sexual assualt is REAL and should be punished. We need to focus on a balance between being human and being a predator. People…

OK, this is not that hard, people need to understand the rules. First, the heuristics. If it would be extraordinarily awkward and/or conceivably career impacting for someone to decline a romantic advance then that advance should not be made, period, because it represents exploiting a power imbalance (even if unknowingly!) and throwing sex and romance into the situation. The only time in any scenario related to the wo…

Three arguments that it's a negative are 1. A power imbalance(market inefficiency?) 2. It makes people uncomfortable(happiness/utility?) and 3. Accepting such an advance could be a form of prostitution.

I wonder if people who believe that prostitution should be legalized consider sexual harassment in the workplace to be a lesser problem, since one of the arguments is struck from the table. #2 doesn't seem to be a major concern, since you claim it's already in the existing system and isn't important(or is that just a matter of degree? That would imply it's more wrong to hit on someone shy than someone outspoken)

If exploiting a power imbalance is wrong, I wonder if employing a homeless person is wrong because you profit off of the labor of the helpless.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#73

Post by int_19h »

vkou wrote: post #40
hdhdbebbbdhdvd wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A problem can be serious without being wide-spread, and this is a great example -- false accusations (of any crime), though rare, sow the seeds of doubt in the testimony of every accuser. Every widely publicized false accusation (Duke lacrosse rape, etc) causes hundreds or perhaps even thousands of real rapists to go free and rape more people, since jurors take the possibility of a false accusation as "reasonable dou…

> A problem can be serious without being wide-spread Rape and sexual harassment are problems that are both serious, and incredibly wide-spread. They are also under-reported and under-prosecuted, and even when they are, well, that young gentleman is such a good athlete, and has such a bright future, we can't destroy his life over something minor like that. You could also bet that actual rape victims would not come for…

> You could also bet that actual rape victims would not come forward. Why the would they, if they could end up in jail, if the case against their rapist falls apart for any one of a million reasons.

OP was saying that you should go to jail if you manufacture a rape accusation, and that is proven to the usual standards of the criminal trial (i.e. "beyond a reasonable doubt"), not if the case against rapist falls apart for any random reason.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#74

Post by InclinedPlane »

maruhan2 wrote: post #65
InclinedPlane wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, this is not that hard, people need to understand the rules. First, the heuristics. If it would be extraordinarily awkward and/or conceivably career impacting for someone to decline a romantic advance then that advance should not be made, period, because it represents exploiting a power imbalance (even if unknowingly!) and throwing sex and romance into the situation. The only time in any scenario related to the wo…

"Whoever is making a move should be hyper conscious of any signs of discomfort on the part of the recipient and should go the extra mile (or ten miles) to provide many more easily available "outs" than normal. In normal dating situations if an advance is not welcomed that's fine, two peers had an interaction, someone made a minor mistake, and probably no one will get hurt. In a dating situation with all the complexit…

Still wrong. The onus is on the person with more authority, power, or privilege. There is a responsibility to educate yourself if you are in such a position (and most men are, in some way or another, in the tech industry). It's 2017, there's no excuse for being ignorant any more. If you're a "flirty" person, for example, that's fine, but you need to go the extra mile to make people feel safe. Be on the lookout for non-verbal forms of discomfort. Reign in your behavior if you are making missteps. Be vocal yourself in providing some outs or opening up a free communication channel for people to raise their concerns. If people are feeling uncomfortable but not speaking up it's not because they are bad at life, it's not because they want to feel uncomfortable, it's because they feel pressured to not speak up. You should think on that, there's a lot of depth worth exploring there.

The fact is we live in a society that is still in an extended hangover from a multi-centuries long binge of incomparable misogyny. There is a burden on those who still hold positions of privilege from that legacy to make everyone in society feel safe, wanted, and free. Do the work or it's not going to get done.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#75

Post by likelynew »

wisty wrote: post #63
InclinedPlane wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, this is not that hard, people need to understand the rules. First, the heuristics. If it would be extraordinarily awkward and/or conceivably career impacting for someone to decline a romantic advance then that advance should not be made, period, because it represents exploiting a power imbalance (even if unknowingly!) and throwing sex and romance into the situation. The only time in any scenario related to the wo…

> People should not be inviting themselves into the room or home of a coworker, period. People should not be trying to get cozy, let alone try to date, people they have only casually met, especially if there is a power imbalance between them or if there is absolutely anything at stake in the professional relationship. Yet the majority of marriages after college are formed exactly that way - a guy asks an acquaintance…

Exactly. In the liberal circles(HN included, even though people here don't always take the side of the accuser), females are assumed to be exactly equal to male, but it is sad that they just demand equality where males are at benefit.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#76

Post by int_19h »

jpttsn wrote: post #68
Pica_soO wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you accuse somebody of a crime s/he didnt commit- and it comes out, you should suffer the same sentence - circumstances of the person you accused would have received as sentence.

Sounds like eye-for-an-eye logic. Why the same? Also, just for rape, or for any crime? If I falsely accuse the President of treason, and he is found innocent, should I be convicted of treason?

There is some logic to it, in a sense that, the more serious the false accusation, the higher the potential damage to the victim - so penalty must also be proportionally higher.

(Note that it didn't say "same crime", only "same sentence".)

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#77

Post by InclinedPlane »

kbart wrote: post #67
InclinedPlane wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, this is not that hard, people need to understand the rules. First, the heuristics. If it would be extraordinarily awkward and/or conceivably career impacting for someone to decline a romantic advance then that advance should not be made, period, because it represents exploiting a power imbalance (even if unknowingly!) and throwing sex and romance into the situation. The only time in any scenario related to the wo…

These rules are perfectly fine, but you don't cover wrong or premeditated accusations which is the key problem here. Most people here know what sexual harassment is, but don't know if the accusation was true or not by seeing some anonymous blog post.

It's not the key problem here. The key problem is still the omnipresence of real sexual harassment and assault in the workplace. Yes, false accusations absolutely do happen, but they are the exception not the rule. Ask yourself, what's the remedy for false accusations for any crime or any wrongdoing? They do exist, ranging from social: the presence of exculpatory evidence or the lack of corroborating stories establishing a pattern of behavior to legal: lawsuits for defamation of character or libel/slander.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#78

Post by [deleted] »

wand3r wrote: post #36

This world is getting so fucked up. We can't crucify people for "hitting on" or other somewhat tame behavior because we have nothing left to throw at the real offenders. Conversely, people benefit on both sides of the equation; using sex to their advantage or weaponizing allegations like this. Sexual assualt is REAL and should be punished. We need to focus on a balance between being human and being a predator. People…

[deleted]

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#79

Post by Cogito »

SeoxyS wrote: post #61
jmcgough wrote: post #8

Incidents like this and that Rolling Stone article do so much damage to real victims of sexual harassment/assault.

What Rolling Stone article are you referring to?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Rape_on_Campus

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#80

Post by arkh »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #57
wand3r wrote: post #36

This world is getting so fucked up. We can't crucify people for "hitting on" or other somewhat tame behavior because we have nothing left to throw at the real offenders. Conversely, people benefit on both sides of the equation; using sex to their advantage or weaponizing allegations like this. Sexual assualt is REAL and should be punished. We need to focus on a balance between being human and being a predator. People…

OK, this is not that hard, people need to understand the rules. First, the heuristics. If it would be extraordinarily awkward and/or conceivably career impacting for someone to decline a romantic advance then that advance should not be made, period, because it represents exploiting a power imbalance (even if unknowingly!) and throwing sex and romance into the situation. The only time in any scenario related to the wo…

> people need to understand the rules.

1. Be attractive.

2. Don't be unattractive.

Two simple rules to not commit sexual harassment.

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