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Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

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Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#231
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people need to understand the rules. 1. Be attractive. 2. Don't be unattractive. Two simple rules to not commit sexual harassment.

While the construction of this old joke is admittedly good, using it as an argument advertises the fact that you view women as prizes rather than as people. It is complaining that they have a say in who they enter into relationships with. Or it's complaining about the fact that humans are more attracted to attractive people, which is how we define the word "attractive" in the first place. I'd avoid it generally, as y…

Women as prizes?

Where did you read the word women in my post? I wrote about sexual harassment which can come from a person of any gender unto a person from any other gender.

The attractiveness also mean a lot of things to different persons.

A man who does not like tattoos may react differently to the same behavior coming from someone with a face tattoo or someone without.

But I hope you can reflect on how many things you unconsciously assumed from one comment and where it was posted and how it can relate to its content (double-standard due to bias).

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#232
post #108
post #36

This world is getting so fucked up. We can't crucify people for "hitting on" or other somewhat tame behavior because we have nothing left to throw at the real offenders. Conversely, people benefit on both sides of the equation; using sex to their advantage or weaponizing allegations like this. Sexual assualt is REAL and should be punished. We need to focus on a balance between being human and being a predator. People…

> Conversely, people benefit on both sides of the equation; using sex to their advantage or weaponizing allegations like this. Yes, but the two sides aren't equal. If you have a knife and we have a nuclear weapon, that we can both hurt each other does not mean that there is a balance, or that both sides need equal protection. Women get sexually harassed or assaulted much more than they fabricate allegations for perso…

> If you have a knife and we have a nuclear weapon

Given the evidence, I think you're confused about who actually has a nuclear weapon. Like in real world, "knife attacks" are much more frequent, but a "nuclear weapon" tends to be much more devastating :).

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think GP is simply implying that, since "a woman rarely gains from making allegations, either true or false", she doesn't have a strong incentive to make false accusations. Which is IMO a fair explanation, though personally I disagree with the assumption here. The way sexual harassment is treated these days, even a vague false accusation is a very powerful weapon. Hell, even a threat of an accusation is a powerful…

Sorry to interrupt your little men-only discussion "women: willing victim or scheming accuser?". But did any of you notice that the alleged false accuser in this case is actually a man?

I'm pretty sure everyone here did, but this particular subthread diverged to a tangential topic, which is normal.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It cuts both ways. Bias toward cracking down on false accusations, and real victims might be afraid to file charges. Bias toward assuming accusations are always accurate, and you enable weaponizing them - which is the whole point of this story . There needs to be a balance here. Also, note - you mention filing charges . But the problem with sexual harassment cases is, they don't even get to that level . It's usually…

> It cuts both ways Yes, so the onus is on the person suggesting changes to the current balance is proving that another balance would be better.

Exactly. Note that it's the social media outrage about (alleged) sexual harassment cases that is trying to change the current balance.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#235

Thousands of women experience sexual violence, every day. What gets Hacker News as excited as the end of Flash? The rare false accusation.

The idea that false rape accusations are extremely rare and hence don't matter is a) not supported by evidence and b) unjust even if it were true.

If you are concerned about this topic, perhaps you should aim your complaints at the people caught time and time again carrying water for girls who cried wolf, even after their lies fell apart. Mattress girl comes to mind.

Drop the obsessive notion of treating women as automatic victims and start seeking actual gender equality, and you will stop seeing a gender-based backlash.

I also don't really see the point of complaining that people assume the accuser is female, when you bring up women as victims yourself without context.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#236
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The man accused of sexual harassment is a real victim, if his accusation is correct. Why do people not see men as victims? His reputation could be ruined for the rest of his life, even if he is innocent. People take the law into their own hands and could physically hurt him as a result of a false accusation amid a system that disregards due process. This community -- Hacker News -- is considering creating a list to n…

> Why do people not see > men as victims? Why do you think they don't?

You wrote elsewhere on this thread:

> This has the side-effect that real victims are put off from filing charges, which is generally thought to be not a good thing.

Well, this man appears to be a victim who is filing charges. You seem not to consider him a real victim. Don't we want victims such as him to defend themselves? As I understand your quote, you can answer your question better than I can: why didn't you consider him a victim?

You may have other reasons not to consider him a victim than that he is male, but I'm just using your quote to illustrate. A quick search returned this page at the top -- http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/domviol/men.htm. I don't know its credibility, only that it suggests a trend, cites many sources, took less than 1 minute to find, and there seemed plenty more such pages.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#237
post #36

This world is getting so fucked up. We can't crucify people for "hitting on" or other somewhat tame behavior because we have nothing left to throw at the real offenders. Conversely, people benefit on both sides of the equation; using sex to their advantage or weaponizing allegations like this. Sexual assualt is REAL and should be punished. We need to focus on a balance between being human and being a predator. People…

> This world is getting so fucked up.

The world is bigger than US. And for the rest of us, we don't really seem to have this problem.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#238
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful with that kind if talk here. In this kind of social political climate logic does not always prevail. Just go look at some past HN threads regarding sexual harassment. The sheer number of people who react emotionally to allegations of sexual harassment is truly astounding. All rationality goes out the window with men throwing themselves over each other to proclaim "I BELIEVE YOU" instead of asking for the leas…

This is a huge straw man if I've ever seen one (and present in many other posts on this thread). To act as if there isn't any logic in the opposing side isn't going to get anywhere. Because of the very nature of sexual assault, providing evidence up to the standards of the US criminal legal system is very hard to do. It likely means that more harassers get off and very few get wrongful sentences. The logic in support…

> This is a huge straw man if I've ever seen one

Where is the straw man? I simply argue that accusations should be substantiated. Once upon a time, this viewpoint would have been considered common sense and not something controversial. And yet here we are.

> The logic in supporting a standard that requires less than the US criminal legal system currently is that it will help put away many more guilty people and put away few/none non-guilty people given the rarity of false accusations with evidence that would say, pass a 50/50 guilt test.

However inefficient it may be, we have a legal system for a reason. The accused are entitled to due process. IMHO there is no greater travesty than an innocent person having their life ruined because we as a society are unwilling to give them fair and reason based judgement.

> The lack of criminal recourse leads to a court of public opinion being the victim's only option often. The court of public opinion is far from fair, which leads back to the idea of working on the criminal recourse options to allow for more victims to actually report and fix this.

You're proposing extra-judicial recourse as the path forward. That may be a possible solution, but the basic mechanisms do not change. Evidence will have to be presented and corroborated one way or another.

> In this case, someone was wrongly accused, and even under a 50/50 system, it's clear the charges would not go through, and yes obviously the pre-meditated wrongful accuser should face a punishment.

Just put yourself in the accused's shoes for one moment. Let's take this specific case. If the accuser had not been so incompetent and exposed himself by using his home IP address, or had the accuser not been so wily in discovering the link between the IP address and the accuser, what would have happened? At best his VC career would be over and his marriage destroyed.

> Instead of complaining about the public lynch mob and blaming the mass of people who likely won't stop, discuss and focus on the problems that prevent it. Like actually getting rape kits tested, creating more avenues for sexual assault reporting via a calmer system than anonymous blog posts, etc.

I don't claim to have the solution to our problems, but blame must be allocated where blame is due. It is far more fashionable nowadays to virtue signal than to be objective, which is the precisely cause of situations like these. If you have a proposal for an effective extra-judicial system that is not based on facts, evidence and due process, I would be more more than interested in reading it.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#239
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we shouldn't prosecute insurance fraud, because it will put off people who file real claims? Nonsense . Corrupting the justice system should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. How can you have justice when the justice system goes along willingly with abuse? There are cases where claimants are proven beyond any doubt to have lied. Lied knowingly, egregiously, and with malice aforethought. The idea that t…

You lost me at equating bringing an insurance claim with bringing sexual assault charges. I don't believe that axiom holds.

Explain why. Be specific.

I think the misunderstanding is that you think I'm saying insurance claims are equal in scope to sexual assault. That is (TBH) ridiculous. To the extent of deliberate blindness.

What I'm actually doing is making a statement about the fraudsters. Not the victims.

FALSE sexual assault charges do not involve sexual assault. False sexual assault charges do not have real victims. So false sexual assault charges are, in fact, entirely equivalent to false insurance claims. Both are false. Both do not involve real victims.

Your reaction comes across as an un-thinking knee-jerk "OMFG sexual assault is bad"... to the point where we can't have a rational discussion about anything related to the subject.

Look, there are fraudsters. See "Jackie" at the University of Virginia. Or the Duke Lacrosse case. In both situations, "wishful thinking" people came damned close to lynching the accused, facts be damned. And in both cases, every single aspect of the claimants story turned out to be provably false.

You have an implicit claim that sexual assault is somehow magical, and deserving of different standards than insurance fraud. All possible evidence shows that this attitude is not just wrong, it is actively dangerous. It denies reality. It denies justice. It hurts innocent people.

Re: Lawsuit: Sexual harassment ‘victim’ was San Francisco business rival in disguise

#240
post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may be right from the practical perspective. As a matter of principle I refuse to cower and slink around the internet. If I am judged, maligned, or inconvenienced by people's opinions of what I say, then so be it. At least I can say I didn't spend every day in moral retreat as the loudest people get their way. I am Aaron Muir Hamilton and I'm not afraid of words.

I respect your stance. However, it is also clear that you haven't been under fire yet :)

As long as your intentions are unmistakably pure, the coals don't feel so hot as you're raked over them.
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