Live data from Hacker News

SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

sec.gov

121–130 of 360 posts

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#121
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, but in the case of things like Storj and Sia, for instance, the ICO token is used to pay for the services offered by the network. What it really is, is a tradable pre-sale. It's as if you could trade the perks offered by a Kickstarter. I'm not sure if that would make it exempt or not, but it is an interesting legal question.

How much paid use does Storj or Sia have? Very few, if any, have bought into these tokens to use the underlying service. It's mostly "expectations of future profit", especially considering many of these tokens is described as having no use. The idea seems to be that useless tokens can not be considered securities, which seems as likely as a cop must answer truthfully if he is a cop.

Tickets to concerts, airpods, condos in london and tulips are subject to scalping and trading over MSRP. So even though people are trading service vouchers or physical objects, they are not a security just because a market has developed over their trade, speculative or not.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#122
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a sentiment that can be proven wrong. It's a statement on basic rights. And history shows that attempts to control complex industries with cookie cutter rules imposed from on top create the most dysfunctional industries in the economy, namely finance, pharmaceuticals, and healthcare.

Much like vaccines, meat inspection, and building codes, we've forgotten what it's like without them. We (Great Britain and USA) have been making securities regulations for 400 years. The important lesson of securities regulation is that it helps the "good" guys more than it hurts the bad guys. When I buy 100 shares of PZZA, I want to be reasonably confident that Papa Johns is cooking pizza and not the books. That co…

A case for mandatory vaccination can be made, as it addresses public health threats, which are negative externalities. Meat inspection cannot. You can choose to eat only government certified meat and not suffer any ill effects from non-certified meat being available on the market.

Just because you want products certified by a government body to be safe doesn't mean you have a right to force others to live according to your standards.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because an ICO can be created at no cost Except the cost to the participants who later have wasted money because the ICO contract was exploitable... At the current rate major losses are as perceptible as all successes. Maybe the industry needs some externally imposed speed bumps from SOME authority until folks can get their acts in gear?

Can you show me the losses vs successes?

I actually cannot name any successes, I looked for a few moments. I presume they exist.

For those thinking I am glib and downvoting, I am asking: Do you know of any? I searched, asked some friends in etherium. I presume they must exist in some for as we're no longer early-days with Etherium.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#124
post #82

The SEC should show that it protects everyone's rights and not just large firms with piles of cash to pay to them and to pay expensive lawyers. Otherwise we have to assume that this is largely about trying to tax things. The way they can do this is by making a real effort to update their technical, documentation, and regulatory programs. Is there a straightforward way to do an Edgar filing that doesn't require a bunc…

> the SEC should show that it protects everyone's rights

One sure-fire way to get the SEC to go absolutely ballistic is to hurt mom-and-pop investors. This is why the commission was founded [1] and why securities law maintains "accredited investor" thresholds, controversial as they are.

> Is there a straightforward way to do an Edgar filing that doesn't require a bunch of training?

Securities lawyers are a few thousand dollars well spent. That said, the SEC has online self-help resources [2] and an online filing portal [3].

> How much do the company registrations and filings actually cost?

It depends on how much you raise. Right now it's 0.01159% [4].

> an ICO can be created at no cost

Until shit hits the fan. Then everyone needs to hire a lawyer. An SEC complaint, on the other hand, triggers investigations and potentially enforcement actions paid for by the filing fees, amongst other things. It's a public good that helps keep companies honest.

> how would fees and filings have actually protected anyone?

The SEC is constantly litigating [5], launching proceedings [6] and helping resolve failed companies [7] on behalf of investors. Audit requirements stop lots of crap before they get too serious, too.

> Does the SEC have technical staff or software capable of evaluating Ethereum contracts for validity or safety?

The SEC doesn't evaluate filings for fitness, just completeness. Its mantra is disclosure and transparency. That lets investors come up with their own informed conclusions. Especially small ones who can't afford corporate lawyers to pull managers' teeth.

[1] http://www.columbia.edu/~hcs14/SEC.htm

[2] https://www.sec.gov/info/edgar/guidance

[3] https://www.filermanagement.edgarfiling.sec.gov/Welcome/EDGA...

[4] https://www.sec.gov/ofm/Article/feeamt.html

[5] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases.shtml

[6] https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin.shtml

[7] https://www.sec.gov/divisions/enforce/receiverships.htm

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This changes lots of things. You can't just open an DAO/ETH/BTC exchange, you need to be compliant with securities law and regulation. Those who operate as an exchange now but do not file the proper paperwork (which is expensive) should expect audits, fines, and shutdown.

I don't think the findings unequivocally imply that ETH and BTC are securities. Or am I missing something?

It's saying that companies raising money through ICOs are issuing securities in form of ownership tokens in their companies.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#127
post #11

I'm not terribly happy with the decision, though I can't say I'm surprised. I enjoy the drama of the Wild West that is Ethereum and the rest of the cryptocurrency ecosystem. Minimal regulation encourages innovation, while regulated markets can exist for people who want stability and certain guarantees to prevent fraud (or at least make it difficult). I wonder what would happen if financial regulations became more "op…

I believe there are different tiers to some securities regulations, right? I seem to remember some sort of "professional investor" status you can apply for, that lets you participate in certain private offerings. And I believe the different marketplaces (NYSE, NASDAQ, etc) also differ in the requirements, although I guess these would come on top of common regulations required by the SEC.

A fundamental problem with different tiers of regulation is that people tend to misjudge their competence. Look at the list of Madoff victims, or that congressman who got a bunch of his colleagues to buy his Australian healthcare micro-cap. And while it may feel almost like justice when a congressman fails in such a public and spectacular way, for everyone who deserves it, there will be thousands of people fleeced by corrupt "investment advisors" pushing scams onto unsuspecting victims.

It's easy to say it's these people's fault, and "Americans shouldn't be treated like children". But that sort of just-punishment-for-stupidity rhetoric implies, under the most gracious interpretation, that people people are capable of learning, and that such scams would therefore only be a transient phenomenon. History shows pretty well that this is not the case: new stupid people are born every day.

The less charitable interpretation is that there's just nothing wrong with exploiting peoples' stupidity to take their money. In that case, I wonder why this logic doesn't apply to physical capability as well: we don't need police, a real American can defend his property on his own. And if he's too old, or weak, or not organised enough to always have at least as many defenders around him than there are attackers, then he deserves a good beating...

People tend to not enjoy living under such conditions, so they start outsourcing their protection, both physically and financially. It gives them peace of mind, and it's also extremely efficient in terms of economics: "Hey, why don't we get together, hire someone who specialises in understanding investment risk, and tells us if this company's CEO is actually a convicted felon who has already bought the one-way ticket to Bolivia."

...and after a few rounds of professionalizing this concept, you end up with the SEC.

There's also a fundamental misunderstanding of the term "risk" at play in these debates:

There's the usual "risk" of investments that, in a functioning market, should be almost linearly (anti-)correlated with the potential reward. This is the risk that's meant in all those formulas.

The risk of the Wild West is that you're falling for a scammer. This is a risk that behaves rather differently than the other risk.

The first, good, reward-promising risk is what one might call the uncertainty of things you cannot (practically) know without trying: will people enjoy this movie, will these scientists come up with a drug that works. You can make educated guesses, and the market serves to incentives people to guess well, and therefore allocates money to the most worthy causes available. Importantly, regulations try to make all relevant information available to everyone, and the idea is that all that's left to do is having good intuition, and you may be better at that than all the investment banks combined.

The second risk, that of falling for a sweet-buzzwording scammer, is a risk that only exists because you don't know all the relevant information. But that information exists, and others have it. In such a market, you're almost sure to lose your money, because it is possible to eliminate such risk if you have enough money to invest: Others, who have more resources than you, may just send somebody to the company's address and discover that the CEO has a face tattoo of a Swastika and has his grandmother generate random numbers by flipping coins.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your personal autonomy is restricted by the government, massively, period, generally for everyone's own good. They decide what and how much medicine you can put in your body. Whether you can gamble, and where, and on what, and how much. What drugs you can take. What speed you can drive. Whether you must go to school or not based on your age. Which food you can buy at the supermarket. These restrictions violate peopl…

I truly hope that human drivers' "right" to drive at whatever speed they want is forever trampled by regulatory burden.

You do not have a right to speed on public property because others share ownership in it, and thus have a legitimate right to contribute to the rules that govern its use. If you owned your own private track, you would have such a right.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#129
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no room for buyer beware? I mean c'mon. People participating in ICOs are still pretty sophisticated technically. Seems like we're regulating interactions between well informed consenting adults.

Every one of these scams that have imploded, including the DAO itself, have had participants crying out for interventions. That should speak volumes about the amount of consent involved (and indeed the sophistication).

Citations? I know of maybe 5-10 coins that have been hacked or imploded in a fraudulent way due to the intrinsic nature of the coin, out of thousands created

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#130
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, but in the case of things like Storj and Sia, for instance, the ICO token is used to pay for the services offered by the network. What it really is, is a tradable pre-sale. It's as if you could trade the perks offered by a Kickstarter. I'm not sure if that would make it exempt or not, but it is an interesting legal question.

How much paid use does Storj or Sia have? Very few, if any, have bought into these tokens to use the underlying service. It's mostly "expectations of future profit", especially considering many of these tokens is described as having no use. The idea seems to be that useless tokens can not be considered securities, which seems as likely as a cop must answer truthfully if he is a cop.

Ya, I would expect the SEC to take that position. But it seems like a subtle legal question, that has the potential to turn all kinds of clearly non-security products into 'securities' in the eyes of the law. Does standing in line to buy iphones on the day of release so you can sell them on eBay constitute buying a security? What about Air Jordans? Etc...At some point, the definition broadens to any purchase with the expectation of profitable resale, which is quite broad indeed. I don't think any court would allow such a broad interpretation of the SEC's power.
Post reply on HN