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SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

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Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#101

Post by Animats »

EGreg wrote: post #64
vasilipupkin wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not just US persons. Germany has securities laws, France has securities laws, etc. I mean that German equivalent of SEC can go after those selling securities to Germans without following German securities laws

Serious question: Do you know any countries AT ALL that have no securities commission, or one that doesn't strictly regulate sale of securities, while at the same time the country allows formation of a company? Being that token sales are international, it would seem there is absolutely nothing illegal about opening a company in that country and offering securities. Even if the owners of the company are US citizens. T…

Israel does not regulate sales of securities to non-Israelis. This resulted in a huge binary option scam industry based out of Tel Aviv.[1] It got so big that it was 40% of Israel's financial sector. It became a political embarrassment for Israel. "Because this industry gives Israel such a bad name and inflames anti-Semitism, we must uproot the phenomenon." - Israel's top securities regulator. A law change is coming, and most of the binary options operators have already fled elsewhere. Cyprus and Bulgaria are popular.

[1] http://www.timesofisrael.com/topic/binary-options/

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#102

Post by cheetos »

Jabanga wrote: post #51
dmitrygr wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same reason SEC exists. Because many people are easy to manipulate, and plenty of malicious people out there will convince (not force) them to invest in their ICO, etc.

Then we should limit who people can vote for, since voters are so easy to manipulate into voting against their own interests. The basic principles of liberal democracy assume that a person has an absolute right to make decisions for their own life. These kinds of restrictions are unconscionable restrictions on the right of free people to their personal autonomy.

There is simply a massive difference between the theory of democracy and its actual implementation. Your personal autonomy is restricted by the government, massively, period, generally for everyone's own good. They decide what and how much medicine you can put in your body. Whether you can gamble, and where, and on what, and how much. What drugs you can take. What speed you can drive. Whether you must go to school or not based on your age. Which food you can buy at the supermarket. What you are allowed to see on television. Where and when you may protest. What behavior is allowed in public and what is not. What speech is considered 'free' and what isn't. What machines you may operate and under what circumstances. Which financial transactions you may or may not participate in and the terms of those transactions. The type of home you build and it's specifications. Which countries you may or may not enter and under which circumstances. Whether you are allowed to work or not. It's just the way things are.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#103

Post by Jabanga »

s73ver wrote: post #94
Jabanga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but to protect U.S. citizens from being scammed all the time. US citizens shouldn't be treated like children that need to protected from their own stupidity.

And companies shouldn't feel emboldened to scam left and right.

Of course. Anyone that scams should be punished. That does not require introducing a license for engaging in some consensual activity, and prosecuting anyone that does this activity without the license. This fearful attitude that will sacrifice the liberty for the promise of security will leave you with neither.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#104

Post by xorcist »

darawk wrote: post #75
Animats wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming that would be unwise. In general, US securities laws cover anything that looks or works something like a security. There have been clever attempts to get around this before. They didn't work.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEC_v._W._J._Howey_Co .

You're right, but in the case of things like Storj and Sia, for instance, the ICO token is used to pay for the services offered by the network. What it really is, is a tradable pre-sale. It's as if you could trade the perks offered by a Kickstarter. I'm not sure if that would make it exempt or not, but it is an interesting legal question.

How much paid use does Storj or Sia have? Very few, if any, have bought into these tokens to use the underlying service. It's mostly "expectations of future profit", especially considering many of these tokens is described as having no use. The idea seems to be that useless tokens can not be considered securities, which seems as likely as a cop must answer truthfully if he is a cop.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#105

Post by kasey_junk »

SolarNet wrote: post #93
tptacek wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there some way we can just replace these kinds of threads with a link to some canonical thread about why the concept of security laws is fundamentally unjust or unwise? This discussion really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Because not everyone agrees with you?

He's suggesting that arguing whether SEC law being just/constitutional/what have you. Regardless of your position, is largely off topic for these posts.

It would be better to just link to the argument somewhere else than derailing this one.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#106

Post by SolarNet »

kasey_junk wrote: post #105
SolarNet wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because not everyone agrees with you?

He's suggesting that arguing whether SEC law being just/constitutional/what have you. Regardless of your position, is largely off topic for these posts. It would be better to just link to the argument somewhere else than derailing this one.

Except he implied that the link should have a significant bias. Also there is a collapse button.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#107

Post by KirinDave »

ilaksh wrote: post #82

The SEC should show that it protects everyone's rights and not just large firms with piles of cash to pay to them and to pay expensive lawyers. Otherwise we have to assume that this is largely about trying to tax things. The way they can do this is by making a real effort to update their technical, documentation, and regulatory programs. Is there a straightforward way to do an Edgar filing that doesn't require a bunc…

> Because an ICO can be created at no cost

Except the cost to the participants who later have wasted money because the ICO contract was exploitable...

At the current rate major losses are as perceptible as all successes. Maybe the industry needs some externally imposed speed bumps from SOME authority until folks can get their acts in gear?

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#108

Post by Jabanga »

cheetos wrote: post #102
Jabanga wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then we should limit who people can vote for, since voters are so easy to manipulate into voting against their own interests. The basic principles of liberal democracy assume that a person has an absolute right to make decisions for their own life. These kinds of restrictions are unconscionable restrictions on the right of free people to their personal autonomy.

There is simply a massive difference between the theory of democracy and its actual implementation. Your personal autonomy is restricted by the government, massively, period, generally for everyone's own good. They decide what and how much medicine you can put in your body. Whether you can gamble, and where, and on what, and how much. What drugs you can take. What speed you can drive. Whether you must go to school or…

>Your personal autonomy is restricted by the government, massively, period, generally for everyone's own good. They decide what and how much medicine you can put in your body. Whether you can gamble, and where, and on what, and how much. What drugs you can take. What speed you can drive. Whether you must go to school or not based on your age. Which food you can buy at the supermarket.

These restrictions violate people's basic rights and are to the material detriment of society at large. The more of a regulatory burden is placed on an industry, the more dysfunctional, bureaucratic and nepotistic it is.

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#109

Post by chowells »

Jabanga wrote: post #72
vkou wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren't allowed to murder people either, but for some reason, most of us don't consider that to be the antithesis of liberal democracy.

The basic principle of liberal democracy is that we have an absolute right to personal autonomy unless we violate other people's equal right to the same. Making it illegal to offer a digital token for sale to other consenting adults, without approval from a central authority, is unconscionable. Before endorsing yet another law that restricts our right to engage in voluntary interactions, consider this: https://www.th…

You interfere with my right to personal autonomy by bankrupting yourself throwing good money after bad in stupid investments, leaving yourself destitute and in need of additional public services.

Or do you also intend to claim that the poor should be allowed to die on the streets as punishment for not being rich?

Re: SEC Issues Report Concluding DAO Tokens, a Digital Asset, Were Securities

#110

Post by EGreg »

Animats wrote: post #101
EGreg wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: Do you know any countries AT ALL that have no securities commission, or one that doesn't strictly regulate sale of securities, while at the same time the country allows formation of a company? Being that token sales are international, it would seem there is absolutely nothing illegal about opening a company in that country and offering securities. Even if the owners of the company are US citizens. T…

Israel does not regulate sales of securities to non-Israelis. This resulted in a huge binary option scam industry based out of Tel Aviv.[1] It got so big that it was 40% of Israel's financial sector. It became a political embarrassment for Israel. "Because this industry gives Israel such a bad name and inflames anti-Semitism, we must uproot the phenomenon." - Israel's top securities regulator. A law change is coming,…

Can you elaborate on the details of these laws?

For example can Israel's Securities Authority retroactively go after companies by classifying ICOs as securities? Or in this case, ALL securities can still currently be sold by Israeli companies to foreigners?

Also, what are the rules for Cyprus and Bulgaria? Where do you get the information about their popularity and their applicable securities laws?

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