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Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

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Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#61

Importantly: 1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty Now if you're interested in this case, read on... There are hundreds of independent yellow pages (including Yellow Pages United) that legally use the term Yellow Pages and the "walking fingers" logo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Pages My partners have been doing direct mail…

I can't wait for Obie's next book, "The Jails Way" seriously though, if you associate and start businesses with people who send fake invoices for deceptive services like this, you are probably a sleazeball. even if you do have glamour shots of yourself all over your webpage.

Upvoted for funny book name.

Oh, wait, this isn't reddit. Damn.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#63
post #5

Mark Smith funded and funds Hashrocket. Hashrocket isn't profitable without Mark Smith. If Obie had no knowledge of this scam then I feel sorry for him and this situation. I guess "The Rails Maturity Model", the Hashrocket Way and BizConf includes taking scam money and pretending to be profitable.

that's totally inappropriate

indeed. My only regret is not being able to downvote him

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#65
post #42

Importantly: 1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty Now if you're interested in this case, read on... There are hundreds of independent yellow pages (including Yellow Pages United) that legally use the term Yellow Pages and the "walking fingers" logo. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Pages My partners have been doing direct mail…

1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint If the people named in the complaint are executives of Hashrocket, then it has something to do with Hashrocket, however indirectly. 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty In the US criminal justice system, there is a presumption of innocence. That doesn't have much to do with whether one is actually guilty or innocent, in the USA or…

If the people named in the complaint are executives of Hashrocket, then it has something to do with Hashrocket, however indirectly.

This seems pretty pedantic. If a VP at Google gets arrested for domestic violence, that hardly means that it "has something to do with Google".

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#67
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Hashrocket has absolutely nothing to do with the criminal complaint If the people named in the complaint are executives of Hashrocket, then it has something to do with Hashrocket, however indirectly. 2) In the USA people are innocent until proven guilty In the US criminal justice system, there is a presumption of innocence. That doesn't have much to do with whether one is actually guilty or innocent, in the USA or…

If the people named in the complaint are executives of Hashrocket, then it has something to do with Hashrocket, however indirectly. This seems pretty pedantic. If a VP at Google gets arrested for domestic violence, that hardly means that it "has something to do with Google".

It is, only if you make up an example quite unlike the one at hand. If an exec of a firm gets charged with fraud, it's not a piece of information you'd ignore when doing business with that firm, even if the fraud charges are regarding another venture. Suppose you're negotiating a deal with some company and in the process they tell you 'Oh, a couple of our key executives were just charged with fraud. But, really, this has nothing to do with us'. Your business partner mumbles 'Hmm, I'm not so sure about this...'. Do you reply 'Oh, quit being pedantic!'? Probably not.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They produced, published and mailed out a real 1000+ page book, twice a year, and I'm aware that it cost them millions of dollars and lots of manpower to do so. We can debate the usefulness of paper-based yellow pages in this day and age until the cows come home, but either way it would not mean they committed fraud.

Obie, sorry to hear about this fiasco. Do you by chance have an example of the solicitations in question? Showing that the solicitation was designed in good faith (and not to confuse people) can go a long way to quell the rumor mill.

IANAL, but you can check Exibit A at the end of the document embedded in this blog post: http://avramc.posterous.com/united-directories-federal-court...

Facts:

- They clearly state that it's not a bill/invoice.

- The fine print explains that there is no obligation to subscribe.

- The fine print explains that they are not affiliated with the actual Yellow Pages.

- The fine print font is larger than your typical bank statement fine print.

- The typical Yellow Pages logo is prominently featured in the solicitation. This is probably not illegal, but can be seen as potentially misleading.

- The first line of the return card is addressed to YELLOW PAGES (as opposed to Yellow Pages United). Probably not illegal, but again, potentially misleading.

Opinion:

I think they (United Directories, not Hashrocket) adopted an unpleasant business model that I wouldn't want to be associated with. But considering Exibit A, it appears that as far as the solicitation goes, they may be operating within the borders of legality. It will be interesting to see what the court will decide.

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#69
post #60

Read for yourself. http://bit.ly/united_dir_filing And while I wish I could say I was a super L33T hacker, I'm afraid these docs are public record if you are set up to look.

So on taking a further look at the court filing I think what we have here is your basic "real world spam" business model. Unfortunately these things are all over the place as they are a proven way to generate money by sending out a firehose of solicitations for an essentially useless "service".

Looking at the solicitation it clearly covers it's ass with all sorts of disclaimers, despite looking deceptively like a bill at first glance. I don't think the solicitation itself will hold up in court as being fraudulent alone. What they are alleging is that they did not even bother to put all the names in the book, and they did not send out as many books as they said they would.

You might ask yourself how such a mailing could be successful. Well, it is a sad truth that there are many aging business owners in many small towns across this country who are not quite on the ball enough to read the fine print anymore. Who falls for all those Nigerian emails? Obviously someone. Basically what these guys are doing is vacuuming up small checks from old man Higgins who is still running the ole' TV repair shop in downtown Podunk, even if nobody much bothers to fix their VCR anymore and the new Wal-Mart has got em for $49 anyways.

At some level this is along the lines of those "Who's Who" books that select you to be in a book of awesome people, and wouldn't you like to buy a copy? That kind of thing is pointless and deceptive, but not illegal. There seems to be more going on here.

A few questions: Why get mail at a PO Box in Atlanta if this business is in Florida and it is so legitimate?

Illegal or not, do you really think this is the kind of ethics you want in your CFO? Or was it a deal with the dark side that had to be made?

Re: Hashrocket execs (not Obie) charged in $425 million mail fraud case

#70
post #60

Read for yourself. http://bit.ly/united_dir_filing And while I wish I could say I was a super L33T hacker, I'm afraid these docs are public record if you are set up to look.

And another thing. Why in the hell would you run a yellow pages company if your brother is already a "fugitive" for doing the same thing. Really? Don't you think that might be a sign... I mean... Really?
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