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Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency Without Your Landlord Noticing

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Re: Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency  Without Your Landlord Noticing

#171
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you might mean solenoid?? It's controlled by the ignition. When the key is on / car running both batteries are in parallel. When the ignition is cut, the solenoid isolates a few circuits that are wired on the backup battery side of the solenoid. This is what I have in my vanagon. I run the radio, fridge, interior lights and some 12v / USB outlets. http://www.gowesty.com/product-details.php?id=2418

I doubt it's a solenoid. Solenoid can be used for galvanic separation in AC circuits not DC. Maybe you mean relay?

It is a Solenoid, it's exactly what I have: http://theroadchoseme.com/diy-jeep-wrangler-jk-isolated-dual...

Re: Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency  Without Your Landlord Noticing

#172
post #8

Cool! The one thing I notice the author gets wrong is (out of modesty perhaps) claiming the system isn't very financially successful. But it actually is! > 200W system payback period: $300 / $48 = 6.5 years until payback > Either way you cut it, this is not a money saving machine. Energy prices are just too low. That represents like a 16% rate of return with little risk, which any investor would take in a second. How…

I played around with a solar savings calculator a while back out of curiosity, there is an excel spreadsheet on an Australian website I believe that's pretty thorough, but it's not the only one.

In short, I don't think it pays to sell electricity back to any utility (they pay back 1/2 of what they charge you) and a battery system probably won't be worth it unless you truly want to stay off the grid. Get a system that's enough for your maximum daytime usage, that's the fastest way to break even, and spend the least amount of money. For such a system, given my local electricity rates, the break even point was ~15 yrs. a decade ago, and it's 7-8 years now. If you can find cheaper panels/inverter the break even can be ~6 years, after which you'll only be left with a much smaller electricity bill. It even makes sense to add panels later if your usage increases.

The way the break even time has been shortening is very exciting, more people will be able to afford it; and if you can, it's a no-brainer to do it sooner rather than wait.

Re: Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency  Without Your Landlord Noticing

#173
post #39

Far more cost-effective would have been to skip the battery and just put a cheap chinese pure-sine-wave grid-tie inverter to bridge between the wall outlet and the panel. It's simple- it has a 110V line cord and plugs into the outlet, sending current the opposite way of normal. Do a search on your favorite e-commerce site for "grid tie inverter" and you'll see what I mean. These cheap inverters have most of the same…

Please do not do this. For one, it's illegal. All grid-tied solar systems require either a transfer switch or to automatically disconnect when the grid loses power. This is so that you don't electrocute an electrician working on lines he or she thinks are dead. Second, most non-"net" meters don't read negative currents. So if you are generating more than you're using, they'll keep spinning forward and you'll get char…

So many here say "it's illegal" without pointing to a single law. There is no such law to point to.

No municipality anywhere outlaws plugging in CE-approved appliances into your home's outlets. Even if half of them did, this would still be worthy of bringing up for the other half.

Even if it was illegal, wouldn't make such laws just or logical. Florida, after all, made off-grid living illegal. http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/03/09/florida-makes...

Now what this approach _is_ is probably against the policies of your local electric utility, but they're incentivized to disallow anything that goes against their business interests, and can argue might somehow not be safe. Take for example HECO, Hawaii's electric utility, economically devastated by grid-tied PV. http://khon2.com/2014/03/19/state-investigates-illegal-photo...

The way a grid-tie inverter works is like trying to jump on a merry go round that's already moving. In the happy path, the inverter keeps the PV power detached until it's ready to find its moment and sync it up to the grid. As soon as that grid signal goes away, the inverter is no longer capable of finding the signal to continue injecting current. The PV panel doesn't cause an explosion if it suddenly goes from 0% output to 100% output to 0%, so it's not exactly a big deal for a grid-tie inverter to perform this matching- it's in fact central to its functionality.

Whether the grid goes down, your breaker trips, or you unplug the 110v line cord yourself, these things all function the same- safe for anybody foolish or unfortunate enough to directly contact the inverter's output lines with their bare hands. These things don't hurt electricians, whether they have 5 safety interlocks (fundamental to any grid-tie design) or 2-3 additional ones sometimes proscribed by certain electrical codes.

"non-'net' meters" are getting to be few and far between, and utilities don't like older models because they require manual meter readers to go door-to-door. Naturally, you should be aware of what your specific electric situation is before getting into by trying one of these things out, but this is a weak argument against DIY grid-tie (much better arguments against exist).

An amazing number of people don't understand how electric meters work. If your grid-connected panel puts out 200W (call it 2 amps) and your apartment is pulling 3 amps total, the electric meter will spin at a rate proportional to 1 amp. It doesn't require any intelligence or fancy technology. If your apartment is pulling 1 amp net, the electric meter will not spin any faster than 1 amp, no matter how old it is. The only difference between new and old meters is whether a surplus of 1 amp is read as -1 amp or 0 amps.

On the off chance you're dumb enough to hook more unregistered PV capacity onto your property than your monthly use merits, utilities may assess fines or lockouts, but none will charge you for the excess generated as if it was consumed. Most are required by law to pay you for it (though an insultingly low rate).

Am also a bit alarmed by how many downvotes I got for the words "cheap chinese", as if that was a red flag for safety. Inverters of every kind, from respected brands in respectable configurations, have gotten _really_ cheap (the same model I installed 10 years ago now costs 1/10 what it cost 10 years ago). They're also almost invariably now made in China.

The fact is, even if your inverter is an incendiary device waiting to happen, you have a large number of built-in safety devices: a circuit breaker and hopefully enough common sense to keep the inverter away from flammable objects, and not to bury the inverter in a ratpile of shredded newspaper and gunpowder. I'd consider the cheap inverters far more likely to simply konk out far before their time than cause any kind of safety hazard. Circuit breakers save lives.

As a worthy counterexample, a faulty inverter (though probably a faulty inverter installation, considering the fire spread) caused this house fire: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/energy/solarpower/1209...

Re: Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency  Without Your Landlord Noticing

#174

Fun stuff. I've built several systems just like this one for camping, they let you keep things like iPads or laptops charged and they aren't noisy like running a generator. Something that my wife discovered was that an igloo "lunchmate" cooler was perfect to hold the battery and charge controller. Makes it easy to carry. I recommend using Anderson Powerpole connectors ( https://powerwerx.com/anderson-power-powerpole-…

During Iraq/Afg conflict, US army started investing in solar systems because they realized every fuel (alot used for generators) convoy that doesn't have to make runs to outposts means less exposure to attacks by enemy. Solar systems can help lower fuel consumption for generators. I heard fairly high percentage of US veterans back at home are more interested in solar systems because they saw the high cost of moving f…

I think an argument could be made that, going there to secure our energy sources forced us to LEARN how to make a better, viable option.

Re: Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency  Without Your Landlord Noticing

#175
post #117

Does the panel produce the same amount of energy every season? I know that in most of Europe the production during summer months is way higher than during winter and that needs to be taken into account

San Fransisco is at about the same latitude as Gibraltar, so while he will see seasonal fluctuations unless he changes its angle of incidence (but hes laying it flat, so...) However, he will not see as big a difference as, say, somebody in Germany.

Re: Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency  Without Your Landlord Noticing

#176
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right which is why I believe that after the coming consumer solar revolution there will be something similar with wind energy. Especially with newer VAWT designs and areas that have a lot of wind. They compliment each other so wind can continue producing at night.

For anyone curious, a VAWT is a Vertical-axis wind turbine ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_axis_wind_turbine ). I always thought these were less efficient than the conventional designs but they're clearly simpler.

Conventional designs struggle with low winds, gusty winds and winds coming from wrong direction. VAWT designs generally fare better with such non-ideal conditions, which are going to be common in residential sites.

Re: Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency  Without Your Landlord Noticing

#177
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because men love electronics projects and women love keeping a tidy house and ruining their dreams, am I right?

> Because men love electronics projects and women love keeping a tidy house and ruining their dreams, am I right? I don't think this is accurate. Personally, I've had a lot of trouble finding people of either gender who are interested in electronics. I might be overstepping here, but it sounds like maybe you should talk to you wife and see what can be done to minimize the negative externalities caused by your hobby?…

I'm a female electronics hobbyist. Definitely sarcasm. :)

Re: Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency  Without Your Landlord Noticing

#178
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, there is a reason why people secure stuff on rooftops. What are you arguing here: That it's okay to leave shit around because the chances are low that it will kill somebody? Just stop with the flawed logic.

No, I have no problem saying securing stuff is generally a good idea. If nothing else it makes it harder for someone to steal it. My point is the specific bad thing described is unlikely to happen. And sure I got a lot of knee jerk reactions but nobody actually did any kind of meaningful calculation demonstrating an issue.

It's not a knee jerk reaction. You have limited view of the problem. I've lived next to a three building being constructed as a kid. The amount of stuff flying is unreal. You aren't accounting for cats, earthquakes, determined birds, malicious intent, gravel under the panel+wind, strong rain that may move the board and angle it.

Your sole argument is, historical wind speeds won't lift it. That is not realistic, naive and outright dangerous thing for which people actually get badly hurt or die.

But, I don't see you slowing down in this thread, so I doubt safety concerns will reach you.

Re: Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency  Without Your Landlord Noticing

#179

I've been using rooftop solar for many years; I live in an RV (for a total of about 7 years, spread across two different RVs, both with solar on the roof). I currently have a 400W system. It makes extremely good economic sense in my case, because it enables me to live comfortably off-grid for weeks or months at a time; which can save hundreds of dollars a month in RV park fees, when I'm traveling. But, the talk of po…

For water heating, you could skip the electricity step. I suppose that would gain you a factor two or three at least in the available wattage.

Yep, solar water heating is a time-tested way to get energy from the sun and put it to use. A lot of the earliest solar power deployments (like Carter's White House) were solar water heaters.

There are even a few cheap off-the-shelf solar water heaters on Amazon these days (when I first researched the problem a few years ago, it was strictly a DIY project if you wanted panels small enough for an RV). Getting water to the roof is usually a difficult problem in an RV (requires breaching the roof without introducing leaks, and finding a path through the walls from the existing water heater to get there), but my current RV has an easier path than my previous one, so I might give it a go next time I've got a free weekend.

Re: Show HN: $200 Solar Self-Sufficiency  Without Your Landlord Noticing

#180

Cool. One caveat in SF (and elsewhere, I'm sure): since I work from home my electricity usage is way higher than the PG&E norm (which itself seems aspirationally low). Of course, PG&E uses this to charge me huge "overage" charges so using a solar panel to offset some of those charges might actually make this economically viable.

One of the biggest cost/safety/longevity factors here is the usage of a storage battery. This is necessary because OP presumably uses most power at night, and is unable to use the grid as virtual storage due to all the complexity that brings.

If one's usage was mostly in the day or even constant, they could forgo the storage batteries and setup a system to supply specific loads, making up any shortfall from the grid. This would take a different type of "inverter" to avoid becoming grid-tied. I'm imagining a production circuit being based around a 170VDC bus (power factor? who cares!), but that's probably currently rare/custom/expensive. You could DIY the same type of thing with a nominal 12V bus (or 48V, depending on your loads) and DC distribution, from off the shelf components.

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