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Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

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Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#141

Post by smileysteve »

Chris2048 wrote: post #122
betenoire wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the balancing part, no? Nothing is risk-free, and the implied dichotomy is misleading. You can be a wreckless fool without the dangerous hobbies. Also implied is that we can even agree what "reasonable parenting" means.

> Nothing is risk-free You can determine a threshold though? > can even agree what "reasonable parenting" means. So much as we can agree what reasonable means - which we can, as there are all sorts of laws regulating various aspects of life. We can, to some degree, legislate "reasonable driving", or "reasonable flying".

> You can determine a threshold though?

If we were at all responsible at evaluating risk to leaving children, there is no way we'd travel in cars as a family unit.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#142

Post by Chris2048 »

betenoire wrote: post #140
Chris2048 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's a principle that comes from personal choice. When you have kids, there's a third party involved. > I don't think there is a standard here Has such a proposal been investigated? > And "reasonable" only ever seems obvious in retrospect. I disagree.

Give me what a reasonable parent does in a car. Do they turn around and talk to their kids? Do they pass a bottle back there for the baby? Do they change the radio station? After than, I have questions about reasonable parenting when hiking in the foothills. How much water should I be required to bring? I could go on and on regarding the gray areas of life. You have the answers?!? Please share.

> You have the answers?!? Please share.

Did I claim to? Anyone that dares suggests standards of safety should exist, must be omniscient first?

And yes,I think those things should be regulated too. To extent that they practically can, they are - you can be cautioned for not driving with due care and attention.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#143

Post by wfunction »

rbg246 wrote: post #135
wfunction wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it seems quite a reasonable argument that, while you have a young child, you shouldn't actively go around risking your life -- they're your dependents > That's an argument for having life insurance; it's not necessarily an argument for not taking risks. Yeah, because fathers can be replaced with money and children wouldn't feel a thing.

That's a bit out of order. You clearly have a belief system which is risk adverse and that's fine but i find it a little judgemental on other people's family lives to be saying what's reasonable and not reasonable to do as a father.

> You clearly have a belief system which is risk adverse and that's fine but i find it a little judgemental on other people's family lives to be saying what's reasonable and not reasonable to do as a father.

Well, I'm not the one who said what the father did was unreasonable, so you might have meant to reply to someone else. I merely said I thought the argument provided for that stance was reasonable. Happy to say the same about an argument for the opposite stance as well when I see it too. The fact that I might find an argument reasonable that doesn't mean I find it convincing and necessarily agree with the conclusion.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#144

Post by Retra »

pdonis wrote: post #107
wfunction wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the complaint was that the parent had a young child, not merely a child. Without actually taking a stance on the topic, it seems quite a reasonable argument that, while you have a young child, you shouldn't actively go around risking your life -- they're your dependents, i.e. it's not just your life you're messing around with. When they stop being your dependents, do whatever you want, it's just your life now…

> it seems quite a reasonable argument that, while you have a young child, you shouldn't actively go around risking your life -- they're your dependents That's an argument for having life insurance; it's not necessarily an argument for not taking risks.

There is no argument for taking risk but for necessity and reward.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#145

Post by dragonwriter »

macspoofing wrote: post #120
dragonwriter wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. People die. A key responsibility of being a parent is to make sure arrangements are made for you children should you die. I suppose whether this risk is warranted involves some complex calculus taking, among it's many inputs, the quality of arrangements that the parent has made, the actual mathemat…

>A key responsibility of being a parent is to make sure arrangements are made for you children should you die. Could you even get life insurance if you engage in high-risk activities?

> Could you even get life insurance if you engage in high-risk activities?

Probably, though you may need a specialized carrier and policy to have those activities covered.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#146

Post by gnaritas »

justinjlynn wrote: post #139
gnaritas wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as abortion is legal, parents certainly do always have a choice; pregnancy is not equal to having a child.

Indeed. Well, I really hate to get technical here - and don't want to debate identity politics - but the male half of the equation really doesn't have that option. In the vast majority of cases, that choice is solely the mother's prerogative. Edit: Let me be very clear here: I am not advocating for any position or change of position on this matter in any way. I am simply stating an observation of how the world curren…

Fair point.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#147

Post by 77pt77 »

narrator wrote: post #17
curtis wrote: post #6

Cave diving is one of those things that I am happy to only experience vicariously through the stories of others.

Or you can watch Youtube vids like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlwoX1YEmg This has got to be the scariest video on Youtube in which no harm comes to anyone.

To anyone who suffers from claustrophobia:

skip this one :)

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#148

Post by Retra »

Chris2048 wrote: post #56
balls187 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a soldier, it's their duty. For the diver in the story, it was his hobby. He'd been doing it for 24 years, so his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive--thus I don't blame him at all.

> For a soldier, it's their duty They accept that duty though, so it's the same thing - instead of "is it ok for a soldier to go to war" it's "is it ok to become a soldier". > his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive What does this mean?

No, they don't merely accept that duty. They receive a paycheck, societal honors, and if they die in the line of duty, their family gets taken care of. They also tend to go into battle under the pretense of carrying out a function of necessity.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#149

Post by neurotech1 »

myrandomcomment wrote: post #76
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Agreed. Wife and I were both skydivers. We have not jumped since my daughter was born. To be honest, it is not because it is unsafe (there is a risk just driving to the drop zone) but because of the life insurance that we now carry. That being said, even if I still jumped I would not do some of the other items around it like is used to (BASE jumping for example).

One of the ironies is that test pilots have trouble getting life insurance, yet its extremely rare that a test pilot for a major aerospace company has a serious accident. I can think of two crashes involving test pilots in recent years that resulted in fatalities (or serious injuries)

[0] https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20110402-...

[1] https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=188544

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#150

Post by JshWright »

putsteadywere wrote: post #137
Mz wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either groups of people care to comment? It is easy to assume that this is the entire picture, but this likely is not true. Perhaps if he were not a cave diver, he would be an alcoholic or a drug addict or beat his kids. We don't know and e…

I really liked this: 'I have seen lots of parents do terrible things because they failed to "put their own oxygen mask on first."' Thanks for writing that!

To take this tangent even further afield...

Here's an actual real life demonstration of why you should put your oxygen mask on first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUfF2MTnqAw

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