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Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

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Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#101

Post by thephyber »

pipio21 wrote: post #91
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

It is not really that risky. It was just an unfortunate accident. It is probably way riskier to practice road cycling or breathing air in a big city(because of diesel particles pollution). This man has been doing this for 24 years, if something diving today with him is safer because of the experience he got. There are extremely risky sports like B.A.S.E, jumpsuit skydiving or freestyle motorbike stunt. This is not th…

> You don't see people around telling smokers: You have children, you should not take risks like this.

Not exactly true.

If you are in the US in a big city in a blue state, politicians and police say that, but for a slightly different reason.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#102

Post by benzofuran »

benzofuran wrote: post #43
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

With the proper training and experience, this is an academically rewarding sport / hobby, and is quite safe - still less so than normal open water diving but not the death trap that it seems. The NSS-CDS ( http://nsscds.org ) keeps accident analysis articles on hand (only seems like older ones are available on the website right now, dead tree is still the boss in this arena) covering these. Similarly though, there's…

There are also a number of facebook groups for accident discussion, analysis, and learning that are kept pretty civil and are usually good resources. There's some pretty interesting chatter about this incident in them right now.

Turns out a large boulder shifted and cut their guide line (and significantly obstructed the route out) which led to this - there's no amount of planning that would've prevented that.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#103

Post by gnaritas »

chad_oliver wrote: post #46
sametmax wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can decide that having children doesn't mean you have to sacrifice everything for them. If you greatest joy in life is this, you may choose to take the risk. Children are not an all or nothing proposal.

I'm not sure I agree. Children don't ask to be born, and they don't get to agree to that trade-off. Parents are responsible for the children they bring into the world. That said, parents don't always get a choice. Sometimes pregnancy is unplanned or even unwanted. I'm not sure how much moral responsibility parents bear in this case, but this scenario illustrates that the issue of responsibility isn't always black and…

As long as abortion is legal, parents certainly do always have a choice; pregnancy is not equal to having a child.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#104

Post by rdtsc »

aasarava wrote: post #44
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Or maybe what he's saying is, "I would rather my kids learn that they should explore and enjoy the world, rather than never take any big risks." There are a lot of parents in the world. Once you start judging them (for actions other than abuse and neglect), you very quickly realize how limiting that is. Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? People who travel for work for days o…

Given the choice of having a father at home or have one dead in cave but famous for exploring cool places I don't think it's hard to guess what most children would pick.

> The good news is that once you become a father, you'll get to decide (possibly with a partner) what the acceptable level of risk is for you and your family.

That's a obvious. What I think is being questioned is if they made a good decision. In other I can freely decide not to strap my kid in a car seat but that doesn't mean I won't get a ticket or my child won't be seriously injured or worse in a car accident.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#105

Post by thephyber »

myrandomcomment wrote: post #76
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Agreed. Wife and I were both skydivers. We have not jumped since my daughter was born. To be honest, it is not because it is unsafe (there is a risk just driving to the drop zone) but because of the life insurance that we now carry. That being said, even if I still jumped I would not do some of the other items around it like is used to (BASE jumping for example).

I'm curious -- what effect does the life insurance policy have?

Is the risk that you die during an event which is not covered or is there some other contingency (like simply taking unnecessary risks while alive can be used to justify voiding of the policy postmortem)?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#106

Post by matt4077 »

j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

As long as he has a partner and/or other family that could take care of the children, and a good life insurance policy, I don't see much of a problem.

Children are quite resilient, emotionally. And I wouldn't underestimate the positive effects it can have if your parents live interesting lives.

And then, there's the bicycle helmet paradox: disparaging him for his decisions may just keep people like him from having children altogether. Considering such risk-takers tend to be well-educated, and provide an intellectually stimulating environment for their children, it may be better for society to just let him be.

(the bicycle helmet analogy is that making helmets mandatory keeps enough people from riding bikes altogether, resulting in a net loss of life expectancy even when factoring in the reduction in deaths from accidents)

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#107

Post by pdonis »

wfunction wrote: post #86
aasarava wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe what he's saying is, "I would rather my kids learn that they should explore and enjoy the world, rather than never take any big risks." There are a lot of parents in the world. Once you start judging them (for actions other than abuse and neglect), you very quickly realize how limiting that is. Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? People who travel for work for days o…

I think the complaint was that the parent had a young child, not merely a child. Without actually taking a stance on the topic, it seems quite a reasonable argument that, while you have a young child, you shouldn't actively go around risking your life -- they're your dependents, i.e. it's not just your life you're messing around with. When they stop being your dependents, do whatever you want, it's just your life now…

> it seems quite a reasonable argument that, while you have a young child, you shouldn't actively go around risking your life -- they're your dependents

That's an argument for having life insurance; it's not necessarily an argument for not taking risks.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#108

Post by Chris2048 »

betenoire wrote: post #41
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

I wrote a longer answer, but I'll shorten it to: it's not about the adrenaline fix. At some point, your hobbies/passions (hopefully) become an integral part of who you are. Especially ones like this with expertise and life-long pursuits. The rest is balancing act that you hope to get right.

> become an integral part of who you are

You can say that about anything. Smoking, alcohol, racism, leftism ( jk :-D )

But is identity investment in something life-risking really compatible with reasonable parenting? that's the question.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#109

Post by wfunction »

pdonis wrote: post #107
wfunction wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the complaint was that the parent had a young child, not merely a child. Without actually taking a stance on the topic, it seems quite a reasonable argument that, while you have a young child, you shouldn't actively go around risking your life -- they're your dependents, i.e. it's not just your life you're messing around with. When they stop being your dependents, do whatever you want, it's just your life now…

> it seems quite a reasonable argument that, while you have a young child, you shouldn't actively go around risking your life -- they're your dependents That's an argument for having life insurance; it's not necessarily an argument for not taking risks.

>> it seems quite a reasonable argument that, while you have a young child, you shouldn't actively go around risking your life -- they're your dependents

> That's an argument for having life insurance; it's not necessarily an argument for not taking risks.

Yeah, because fathers can be replaced with money and children wouldn't feel a thing.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#110

Post by dragonwriter »

Chris2048 wrote: post #108
betenoire wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wrote a longer answer, but I'll shorten it to: it's not about the adrenaline fix. At some point, your hobbies/passions (hopefully) become an integral part of who you are. Especially ones like this with expertise and life-long pursuits. The rest is balancing act that you hope to get right.

> become an integral part of who you are You can say that about anything. Smoking, alcohol, racism, leftism ( jk :-D ) But is identity investment in something life-risking really compatible with reasonable parenting? that's the question.

> But is identity investment in something life-risking really compatible with reasonable parenting?

Every human activity is life-risking (as is inactivity.)

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