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Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

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Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#71

Post by Chris2048 »

balls187 wrote: post #59
Chris2048 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a soldier, it's their duty They accept that duty though, so it's the same thing - instead of "is it ok for a soldier to go to war" it's "is it ok to become a soldier". > his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive What does this mean?

> What does this mean? As someone who's never done cave diving, the perception of risk is going to be higher than the actual risk. 1 time in 24 years is pretty low.

Maybe, unless he got sloppier as time went on.

There are a few flags pointed out in these threads - like not telling anyone that he dived..

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#72

Post by Fuckdang3 »

QAPereo wrote: post #67
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

When you start to look at thrillseekers as addicts, it starts to make a lot more sense. It's just that to get high, they take risks instead of using drugs, but the personality and the lack of concern for others in the face of that addiction is more than just similar I believe.

Way to belittle someone's interests and desires cunt

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#73

Post by Chris2048 »

nvahalik wrote: post #57
Chris2048 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rather than never take any big risks With kids at home? specifically ?! There are ways to enjoy life, or take "risks", that do not involve mortal danger. > Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? .. Someone who commutes .. in a car that has a poor safety rating? Are those as dangerous? If so, then yes, I think so. > People who travel for work for days or weeks at a time? People…

> There are ways to enjoy life, or take "risks", that do not involve mortal danger. Depends on how you look at it. We are fragile creatures and the world is a fairly dangerous place. People die every day driving cars, riding bikes, going for walks—doing things far more mundane than cave-diving.

I meant taking a risk on a new vacation, or relationship.. But when it comes to mortality, it depends.

If taking a walk is as dangerous as cave diving - then yes, I'd consider moving.

If you want to reduce the risks in riding a motorcycle, you can drive slower, in dry conditions during the day. I'm not sure exploring uncharted underwater caves is the slow lane..

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#74

Post by dragonwriter »

j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

> I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish.

People die. A key responsibility of being a parent is to make sure arrangements are made for you children should you die.

I suppose whether this risk is warranted involves some complex calculus taking, among it's many inputs, the quality of arrangements that the parent has made, the actual mathematical degree of risk, and personal factors including those about the ages, personalities, etc., of the children involved. And that's true of basically every activity involving risk, but I don't think the key parameters on the boundaries here are unambiguous even if the input values were clearly knowable and computation tractable.

In general, I don't think outside parties ever have the information to have much of an meaningful discussion on specific cases, and it mostly ends up being empty posturing.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#75

Post by Chris2048 »

vertex-four wrote: post #61
Chris2048 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rather than never take any big risks With kids at home? specifically ?! There are ways to enjoy life, or take "risks", that do not involve mortal danger. > Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? .. Someone who commutes .. in a car that has a poor safety rating? Are those as dangerous? If so, then yes, I think so. > People who travel for work for days or weeks at a time? People…

Taken to the extreme, your suggestion would be to never drive a car (or indeed go anywhere near a public road), as that is one of the most dangerous things we do every day. Travelling for a holiday would be a definite no-no, as it's likely more dangerous than staying at home. And so on and so forth.

> Taken to the extreme

True, so let's not take to the extreme. Risk-adversion is a quantitative, not qualitative, practise.

I'm not saying minimising risk is the only goal in life, but avoiding very high risks is - do you think cave diving is no riskier than driving a car on the motorway?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#76

Post by myrandomcomment »

j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Agreed. Wife and I were both skydivers. We have not jumped since my daughter was born. To be honest, it is not because it is unsafe (there is a risk just driving to the drop zone) but because of the life insurance that we now carry. That being said, even if I still jumped I would not do some of the other items around it like is used to (BASE jumping for example).

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#77

Post by sametmax »

Xero wrote: post #50
sametmax wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can decide that having children doesn't mean you have to sacrifice everything for them. If you greatest joy in life is this, you may choose to take the risk. Children are not an all or nothing proposal.

"Children are not an all or nothing proposal." I'm not sure I understand this mentality. Why force a life into this existence if you don't do everything in your power to make it as accommodating as you can? Modern life in it of itself will be working against it.

You just give a greater value to this life than somebody else does. And you give yourself a greater responsability about. Those are all moral choices, there is no good answer. Only the way you see the world.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#78

Post by Chris2048 »

harpiaharpyja wrote: post #68
Chris2048 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For a soldier, it's their duty They accept that duty though, so it's the same thing - instead of "is it ok for a soldier to go to war" it's "is it ok to become a soldier". > his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive What does this mean?

Not GP but I believe he is saying that unless we've been in an underwater cave the diver's perspective may be difficult for us to really appreciate. To us, continuing to dive seems like an unacceptable risk. To the diver, it seemingly is not. Along the same vein I believe GP then goes on to say that he does not feel that the diver's perspective is less valid just because he (the GP) doesn't understand it.

But what's the difference?

Either it's risky, or it isn't? If the diver has good reason to think that it isn't, fair enough. But is that the case?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#79

Post by knodi123 »

dotancohen wrote: post #30
narrator wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you can watch Youtube vids like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlwoX1YEmg This has got to be the scariest video on Youtube in which no harm comes to anyone.

> This has got to be the scariest video on Youtube in which no harm comes to anyone. Off topic, but here is a viable contender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFMHjDqHL_Y There are videos of higher towers, but I believe that this video is the most thoroughly annotated one.

That video gives me physical discomfort in my balls. I wonder what the evolutionary explanation for that symptom is?!

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#80

Post by sametmax »

chad_oliver wrote: post #46
sametmax wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can decide that having children doesn't mean you have to sacrifice everything for them. If you greatest joy in life is this, you may choose to take the risk. Children are not an all or nothing proposal.

I'm not sure I agree. Children don't ask to be born, and they don't get to agree to that trade-off. Parents are responsible for the children they bring into the world. That said, parents don't always get a choice. Sometimes pregnancy is unplanned or even unwanted. I'm not sure how much moral responsibility parents bear in this case, but this scenario illustrates that the issue of responsibility isn't always black and…

The degree of engagement is always your choice. You can deem the choice less moral according to your values, but that's the limit of it.
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