Stop complaining and pay programmers more • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#211

Post by tkahnoski » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:37 PM UTC

hello_moto wrote: post #60

tkahnoski wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Company I work for issues a basic data structures test to be completed in 1 hour for all resumes worth their paper (about 10 to 15 out of 100 candidates). The test boils down to 'fill in these two functions'. About 20% finish both functions correctly in an hour (I still had an infinite recursion at the 1 hour mark and submitted a correct entry 10 minutes later). In conjunction with a phone interview we typically only…

Upvote for being very honest. Isn't this what happened throughout the industry? (with a very few exceptions). This is exactly what makes my belief about "great programmers" just went out of the window: no matter how great an individual is, the fact that plenty software houses have terrible code base show something else. People can blame the businesses, the time-to-market, the deadline or whatnot and I believe you guy…

My main point is you can find all the great talent you want, but people, just like everything else, are not silver bullets.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#212

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:46 PM UTC

Loic wrote: post #168

jquery wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "I love your work" Nothing says "I love your work" more truthfully than a bonus or a raise.

Where have you been working for the past few years? A bonus you get it twice a year, a boss respecting your work and saying thank you, you have it every single day. If you are paid correctly, you should not even need a bonus but you cannot go long without respect from your boss and peers. By the way, it is proved by countless experience that once salary is good enough, it is disconnected from happiness at work. Good…

> By the way, it is proved by countless experience that once salary is good enough, it is disconnected from happiness at work

That's not any different then what they OP is saying. The issue people have at finding good programmers is that they aren't paying enough.

Yes, other things matter, but if you start off by offering minimum wage, a "Good job!" doesn't really matter.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#213

Post by jasonlotito » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:51 PM UTC

binaryfinery wrote: post #101

damoncali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but offering more money to someone who feels like they already make enough is amazingly ineffective. My point is that, in my experience, great programmers place a much higher value on doing interesting work than they put on making more money.

If you've offered them more money to do a less interesting job, certainly. Also, good programmers are often quite loyal, and don't want to leave their team in the lurch. There are plenty of reasons why you failed to recruit said programmers. Given that I enjoy my job, and I'm paid "enough", why would I even bother looking at your offer? Offering me a shit-ton of money because "this job will require an elite programme…

I think the problem is we have people who equate money with not being an incentive assuming you are being paid enough. However, they leave out that last part. The reality is, that last part is missing from a lot of job offers. I usually find that condition to be critical.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#214

Post by silverlake » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:52 PM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #5

You have to understand: there's more to hiring programmers than paying lots of money. If that were the case, we wouldn't have had a dot-com bust and software companies would be dominated by MBAs. That's the hard part of hiring programmers. How do you incentivize the good ones to work for you? If you have a solution to that problem, I suspect you'll be a very much in-demand person.

You first have to explain how programmers are different from any other profession, and how the law of supply/demand strangely fails here. Personally, I consider income, working conditions and project type. I'll apply if you offer a Wall St. salary, or let me work remotely, or are working on something I think is super cool. Offering $10K more than my current salary for the same job is not worth my time. What are you offering?

My friend is trying to hire some devs for her big bank. They offer ~$50K more, but the work environment is HELL and the projects are mind-numbingly boring (back office). They can't find any competent devs. He said they hired an ex-MSFT and ex-GOOG once, but both quit within a week.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#215

Post by shareme » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 3:18 PM UTC

damoncali wrote: post #7

I think you have it exactly backwards. The best programmers I know seem to be indifferent to cash. They work on the most interesting project they can find that pays them enough to live. Hiring people like that is really tough.

ah no its not..

Often the case is the hiring manager or firm not being upfront and the potential programmer running from the interview process due to that dishonest behavior

we tend to like upfront honesty and transparency because most of us are realists

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#216

Post by silverlake » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 3:21 PM UTC

Russelldb wrote: post #194

My theory on this is that it is a market for lemons. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons Solve that problem to solve this one.

Extend the idea of "lemon laws" to hiring. Every new hire has a 3 month try-out period (as a contractor?) where they will be fired if it doesn't work out. If you make this point forcefully during the interview, some low-quality applicants will seek safety elsewhere rather than risk losing their job, while high quality applicants won't be deterred.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#217

Post by chrisa » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 3:52 PM UTC

huhtenberg wrote: post #111

noonespecial wrote: post #93

The same thing is (and has been) happening with nursing. They complain endlessly about the "nursing shortage" unable to figure out why people might be unwilling to do a hard job for long hours requiring extra education and incurring outsized liabilities for extremely low pay. The really bad news is its starting to catch up with many doctors as well.

> for extremely low pay Not sure where you are from, but here in Canada nurses lead very cushy lives. Salaries of 80 to 120K are not uncommon, and that's with 4 weeks of vacation, 1 day in / 3 days out schedule, etc.

Here's a link to information about base pay for nurses in the US (2006). It actually mentions the nursing "shortage" at the top: http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary-surveys/nursing/

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#218

Post by blacksmythe » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 3:52 PM UTC

binaryfinery wrote: post #126

starkfist wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have $1.2 million dollars, they can't pay more. $125K is a huge pre series-a salary.

They're also offering stock of course, and it actually looks interesting :-) Plus they may not be so time sensitive: 4 programmers for 10 months vs 5 programmers for 8 months (yes I know). But if its $125k vs $150k will that $25k break the bank? Maybe. Maybe not.

The real question is will two $150k programmers produce more than three $100k programmers. In Silicon Valley, my experience is yes.

The same ratio probably applies anywhere, but the relative scale changes.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#219

Post by mavelikara » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 4:07 PM UTC

jasonlotito wrote: post #200

damoncali wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but offering more money to someone who feels like they already make enough is amazingly ineffective. My point is that, in my experience, great programmers place a much higher value on doing interesting work than they put on making more money.

> Yes, but offering more money to someone who feels like they already make enough is amazingly ineffective. Which is completely besides the point. Listen, I understand that point of view. I agree with it. I live it. > My point is that, in my experience, great programmers place a much higher value on doing interesting work than they put on making more money. Only after they have enough money to not have to worry about…

I completely agree with you here. Lot of comments on this thread say "Money is not a good motivator" vs "Money is the only motivator". But as you said, things are somewhere in-between.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#220

Post by Alex63 » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 4:09 PM UTC

mikemainguy wrote: post #34

ojbyrne wrote: post #28

I have a simple theory. Most managers are still educated according to Taylor's Scientific Theory of Management, where the managers are more intelligent than the "factors of production," and their role is to "scientifically" direct their work so that they create additional value (which is multiplied by how many workers they have reporting to them). Their salaries reflect that model, and thus is proportional to the sal…

That's silly, physicians, mechanics, lawyers, and many other skilled tradesmen are just like programmers. The problem is that many folks see programmers as somehow different than these folks.

Agree. And all the replies to this post about the specifics of medicine or law seem to me to be missing the point. There are fields other than programming where "workers" have more domain-specific knowledge than "managers". Mikemainguy was responding to the perceived assertion that programming is the only occupation where this is true. He is offering counterexamples to the statement that "programming is really the first discipline where the primary determinant of the "factor's" productivity is not the manager's skill but actually the intelligence of each individual"