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Stop complaining and pay programmers more

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191–200 of 290 posts

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#191
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment peaked my interest to read the HBR article you mentioned. Thanks. http://hbr.org/2010/07/the-big-idea-no-management-is-not-a-p...

No, it piqued your interest.

Is there a name for that phenomenon, where people hear terms in use but map them to the wrong words? Or the opposite, where people learn words through reading but mispronounce them?

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#192
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it piqued your interest.

Is there a name for that phenomenon, where people hear terms in use but map them to the wrong words? Or the opposite, where people learn words through reading but mispronounce them?

I submitted a Wikipedia article on this very subject :-)

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1477763

Apologies in advance for engaging in the clichéd 'submit a Wikipedia page' pattern!

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#193

Hiring managers don't list a salary. If they do they're looking to hire really junior engineers who probably can't write a linked list reversal program anyway. In my 13 years working at startups I've never applied for a job that listed a salary range. Ultimately, within reason, good programmers are worth whatever you have to pay them and bad programmers aren't worth what you pay them. There are way more bad programme…

Different people are attracted by different things. For one it's the money, for others the environment, culture or challenges. But usually it's a combination of all of these factors. You can't just disregard money as an influencing factor in the decision making process of a potential employee. After all, you wouldn't be working for free. Sure, there is always the exception to the rule - the person that isn't interested in money at all. But in general money is a pretty good incentive for doing something.

The salary that a company offers might not be listed in a job offering, but the culture and many other factors are neither. And even though they are not listed you probably heard of companies with a great culture etc. Don't you think the same is true for salaries?

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#195
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Medicine is not that powerful. Doctors don't have that big power over people's lives. And the ones that do have are mostly edge cases, like it is in programming. Most of the doctors just move you around the "system". I can tell you this because I am a doctor myself. And gave up medicine in favor of programming. Medicine is a beauroucratic closed society, that is not willing to accept new members. They hav…

Okay, I've just graduated as a vet and I had a bit of a crisis where I was worried: 1) That medical professions remain in their elite positions by using inaccessible language and a closed community 2) That there was a limited range of tools where much clinical work is just remembering someone else's solution to a particular disease and involved little in the way of problem solving and as a consequence something that…

I didn't say that I'm not happy with what I get paid. And it wasn't an excuse at all. Just the opposite. I wanted to show why the people saying that "medicine is paid fairly compared to programming" are wrong.

I wanted to debunk the myth saying that medicine is the holy grail of professions. It is not. It's overrated, over-regulated and over-idolized. It's quite like the music industry. And it has to change, but changing it will be much more difficult than changing music industry.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#196
post #182

Looking at a lot of the posts on here, it seems that the bar to finding good programming staff is (1) finding good programmers and allowing them to find you and (2) weeding out the chaff. Furthermore, it seems that weeding out the chaff is something probably everybody could agree on - that is, what would be nice is some kind of informal certification process or standard test. Nothing like an AMA board certification o…

There are a bunch of certifications already. They are either too simple or too narrow to be particularly useful for hiring purposes (imho).

The best way I've seen to evaluate the ability of a programmer and their* fit at your company is to:

1) Ask them to program something simple in the language you expect them to use.

2) Present them with a problem your team recently faced and ask them to talk through how they would approach finding a solution.

3) Ask them about things that relate to your startup/corporate culture (eg. if you're a bunch of practical jokers, ask them about practical jokes they've done or been victim to)

4) Ask them what part of your product sucks the worst. What specific thing would they do to improve it? Why would that be an improvement?

5) Have all your short-list people meet and spend some time together. In a followup interview, ask each about their opinions of the others.

* I hate to use "they" and "their" as a gender-neutral, singular pronoun but haven't really found anything better :-(

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#197
post #28

I have a simple theory. Most managers are still educated according to Taylor's Scientific Theory of Management, where the managers are more intelligent than the "factors of production," and their role is to "scientifically" direct their work so that they create additional value (which is multiplied by how many workers they have reporting to them). Their salaries reflect that model, and thus is proportional to the sal…

Management = Leadership + Administration + Manipulation

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#198
post #28

I have a simple theory. Most managers are still educated according to Taylor's Scientific Theory of Management, where the managers are more intelligent than the "factors of production," and their role is to "scientifically" direct their work so that they create additional value (which is multiplied by how many workers they have reporting to them). Their salaries reflect that model, and thus is proportional to the sal…

Unfortunately programming is really the first discipline where the primary determinant of the "factor's" productivity is not the manager's skill but actually the intelligence of each individual.

Are you really suggesting that programming is the first profession to arrive on the world-scene in which productivity scales with intelligence? I think that's a bit egocentric. I can think of a few others.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#199
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best programmers I know seem to be indifferent to cash. No, they do care about cash. How do I know? >They work on the most interesting project they can find that pays them enough to live. There. That's why. If they weren't making enough money to meet their needs, they'd be looking to trade up. Money isn't the only answer. Everyone likes to talk about how money isn't the solution. I'm pretty sure every one is ma…

I work in a pretty unsexy field (MySpace apps), and there's no amount of money I could pay to my researcher friends to drop their computer graphics projects and work for me instead.

Which doesn't contradict what I say at all. Indeed, it only supports my stance.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best programmers I know seem to be indifferent to cash. No, they do care about cash. How do I know? >They work on the most interesting project they can find that pays them enough to live. There. That's why. If they weren't making enough money to meet their needs, they'd be looking to trade up. Money isn't the only answer. Everyone likes to talk about how money isn't the solution. I'm pretty sure every one is ma…

Yes, but offering more money to someone who feels like they already make enough is amazingly ineffective. My point is that, in my experience, great programmers place a much higher value on doing interesting work than they put on making more money.

> Yes, but offering more money to someone who feels like they already make enough is amazingly ineffective.

Which is completely besides the point. Listen, I understand that point of view. I agree with it. I live it.

> My point is that, in my experience, great programmers place a much higher value on doing interesting work than they put on making more money.

Only after they have enough money to not have to worry about it.

Offering programmers minimum wage isn't going to entice them from their 6-figure job, even if the work is challenging and fun. Most likely their 6-figure job is already exciting and fun enough.

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