Stop complaining and pay programmers more • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#21

Post by mgkimsal » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:19 AM UTC

makecheck wrote: post #9

Money doesn't always attract people to a job. The purpose of good pay is to keep people from leaving! Nothing will destroy a code base like having its original designers leave; there has to be someone who can answer questions quickly. I've never known the salary for a job at the time I applied. I'm not even sure I had a ballpark. It does come up in interviews, since companies tend to want to know what you're expectin…

"But why should I care?"

If you know ahead of time they're only interviewing for a position that tops out at $35k and you don't want anything less than $60k, it's better to not waste everyone's time.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#22

Post by ChRoss » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:23 AM UTC

"Rare commodities are expensive." I do agree on this one. However, money is not always the primary motivation/reason for people to join you. My friend once told me about how he asked his team, what is the reason for them to join a company. From tens of reasons, they finally come out with two only: FUN and TEAM.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#23

Post by dedward » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:34 AM UTC

vaksel wrote: post #8

amock wrote: post #2

How will offering a higher salary deter less qualified people? It seems like it will attract more of all kinds of programmers.

I'd imagine the incompetent ones wouldn't bother applying to jobs that are "way out of their league". If you are "sucky" you might still apply for a $60K job, thinking that you might slide through. But you wouldn't bother applying to a $100K job, thinking that there'd be way more competent people applying so it'd be a waste of time

You'd imagine that, but you'd be wrong - there are a great many technical employees who don't realize they are way out of their league and will apply anyway.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#24

Post by Towle_ » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:38 AM UTC

A relative of mine works as a database administrator making $120k/year and lacks fluency in HTML/CSS. By contrast, Google regularly comes under fire for underpaying their employees, and their average employees are more talented than those of perhaps any other large corporation in the world.

It's not about money.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#25

Post by baddox » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:42 AM UTC

mkn wrote: post #18

If you've been around yc for more than a month, you've doubtless seen a number of links to articles on motivation as it pertains to creative activities like software development. The consensus is pretty clear. Incentives hurt productivity in creative activities. This seems to have something to do with the relationship between creative effort and intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation. The prospect of an incentive seems t…

I don't think that's necessarily the case. If you're looking for very talented programming, chances are they'll already have a somewhat decent job. To pull them from that job to yours, you'll have to offer at least as much as they're already making. Sure, 60,000 USD a year may be plenty, but someone making 65k will probably immediately subconsciously ignore the ad (unless of course they're very displeased with their current job and desperate for another, which probably is also rare for very talented programmers).

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#26

Post by makecheck » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:46 AM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #21

makecheck wrote: post #9

Money doesn't always attract people to a job. The purpose of good pay is to keep people from leaving! Nothing will destroy a code base like having its original designers leave; there has to be someone who can answer questions quickly. I've never known the salary for a job at the time I applied. I'm not even sure I had a ballpark. It does come up in interviews, since companies tend to want to know what you're expectin…

"But why should I care?" If you know ahead of time they're only interviewing for a position that tops out at $35k and you don't want anything less than $60k, it's better to not waste everyone's time.

If they're surprised that I expect more than they were planning to offer, they might also ask themselves why the difference would be so drastic. Maybe they compare their experience interviewing me, with others who seemed to want less, and make a connection. Or maybe that's wishful thinking. :)

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#27

Post by mgkimsal » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:51 AM UTC

makecheck wrote: post #26

mgkimsal wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But why should I care?" If you know ahead of time they're only interviewing for a position that tops out at $35k and you don't want anything less than $60k, it's better to not waste everyone's time.

If they're surprised that I expect more than they were planning to offer, they might also ask themselves why the difference would be so drastic. Maybe they compare their experience interviewing me, with others who seemed to want less, and make a connection. Or maybe that's wishful thinking. :)

I think it's wishful thinking. Most companies (large and small) I've worked at or known about (via friends) have ranges for particular positions. It doesn't really matter what you want if you're vastly outside of what they've been allocated to pay. Yes, occasionally orgs will bend the position to fit you and modify pay accordingly, but it's rare enough to be the 'exception that proves the rule' when it does happen.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#28

Post by ojbyrne » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:53 AM UTC

I have a simple theory. Most managers are still educated according to Taylor's Scientific Theory of Management, where the managers are more intelligent than the "factors of production," and their role is to "scientifically" direct their work so that they create additional value (which is multiplied by how many workers they have reporting to them). Their salaries reflect that model, and thus is proportional to the salaries of their direct reports times the number of direct reports they have. This is well-ingrained in the workplace, and in society.

Unfortunately programming is really the first discipline where the primary determinant of the "factor's" productivity is not the manager's skill but actually the intelligence of each individual. There's huge conflicts created, not just about salaries, but job roles, and really the structure of society (which is really built around an educated managerial class overseeing (and living apart from) a less educated working class.

The primary issue with paying programmers more is that they're butting up against those managerial salaries and life roles. Programming doesn't fit Taylor's theory. To change that isn't just about micro changes in business, it's about macro-changes in society.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#29

Post by mikemainguy » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:53 AM UTC

But there's a perverse side to this. By offering MORE compensation, it would seem likely that MORE unqualified people will apply. For your logic to work, we'd need to show that making a skill more expensive would automatically cause inept people to stop applying. If that doesn't hold true, you could be throwing away 999 out of 1000 candidates instead of 199 out of 200.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#30

Post by mkn » Thu, Jul 01, 2010, 2:56 AM UTC

alttab wrote: post #20

mkn wrote: post #18

If you've been around yc for more than a month, you've doubtless seen a number of links to articles on motivation as it pertains to creative activities like software development. The consensus is pretty clear. Incentives hurt productivity in creative activities. This seems to have something to do with the relationship between creative effort and intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation. The prospect of an incentive seems t…

Hey, you rationalize your pay grade anyway you want buddy, but speak for yourself. I do what I do because I enjoy it, but I never take my eye off the bottom line - and either should you.

I don't see 1) how I was "rationalizing [my] pay grade," nor 2) what the remark about not taking one's eye off the bottom line has to do with anything.

The idea that the OP put forward was that simply offering more will solve the problem of finding competent programmers. My comment was related to recent and compelling research into motivation in creative work. It seemed related. I'm not sure I mentioned my pay grade.

Having one's eye on the bottom line is different from being subject to an incentive program, and different still from being competent. The latter is the more to the point. Anyone can be greedy. Even the incompetent. In fact, due to the Dunning-Kruger effect, it might even be suspected that the incompetent are likely to feel more entitled to a higher wage than the competent.

I am not your buddy. However, I will offer the following friendly advice: You might enjoy the level of discourse on Reddit or Digg more than that on YC.