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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#121

Post by nojvek »

gruez wrote: post #106
objclxt wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head big users of React include: * Apple (their entire dev docs site is built in it, and they've hosted Bay Area React user meet-ups) * Twitter (for their mobile web) * Microsoft (parts of Visual Studio use it) * Netflix (all over their frontend stack) ...as well as Dropbox, AirBnb, Venmo... So whilst I don't doubt you've discussed it with concerned counsel, there are huge corporations deploying Rea…

>* Microsoft (parts of Visual Studio use it) you mean vs code, which is a separate product from "visual studio"

Vscode does not use react specifically for the licensing reason. I don’t know if they do now but when I was at MS this was the case. I know many teams at MS who evaluated react and lawyers strictly advised to stay away from it. I hear things have changed a bit, but you’ll never see Office and Windows use it.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#122

Post by iamstef »

madeofpalk wrote: post #31
Steeeve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering almost every single large tech company is using React React isn't as popular in the real world as it is on HN.

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean 'almost every single large tech company', but React is used by Facebook (of course), Apple, Twitter, Yahoo, Netflix, Amazon, just to name a few.

I know atleast one of these companies (I can't speak for the rest) had a pre-existing bi-lateral patent agreement with Facebook which rendered the react patent clause irrelevant, allowing them to use react without concern. Without that existing agreement this would not have been the case.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#123

Post by khuey »

Lazare wrote: post #120
cma wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't legally use React without a patents license. The difference between the patents grant and the copyright license is mostly in the timeframe they cover (20 years for patents, 100+ years or whatever for copyright).

> You can't legally use React without a patents license. I'll send you US$50 if you can find ANY evidence this is true in the US, UK, Aus, or Canada. :)

That nobody seems to know whether there are in fact any patents licensed by the patent grant within React is one of the most frustrating things about it.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#124

Post by nojvek »

thelarkinn wrote: post #107
bonoetmalo wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you add a short elaboration on the visual Studio bit? I use visual studio every day in my day job and am very curious how react fits into that.

VS and EdgeDevTools use InfernoJS I believe. Another VDOM implementation.

Funny enough that the author of Inferno now works for React team at Facebook. Inferno was a great project with perf that blows react out the water. Not sure if it’s maintained anymore.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#125

Post by nojvek »

songzme wrote: post #22
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. But you're not wrong, preact is a great alternative to react and it comes with a permissive license.

Thank you for telling us about preact. Is there a good react-native alternative? Our team has bound our codebase pretty tightly to react and react-native (optimized for code sharing).

Preact compat mode is amazing. Highly recommended.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#126

Post by Lazare »

afro88 wrote: post #117
Lazare wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're quite right. The license to use React is governed by the BSD license, and it's not terminated if you end up suing Facebook over their violation of you VR patents or whatever. Edit: Downvoted for a factual answer? There's a host of sources confirming by answer as correct, including Facebook's official FAQ on React licensing[0]. Q: "Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents…

Apologies for the dumb question, but what rights do you lose if the patent license is terminated? I mean, if you can use the software without the patent license, what is the patent license giving you?

> I mean, if you can use the software without the patent license, what is the patent license giving you?

Facebook may or may not have some patents covering concepts or algorithms used in React. If they do (nobody is aware of any), then they could sue you for using React, or any other framework which uses the same underlying concepts (eg, Preact, maybe Vue, possibly Angular 2.x, etc., depending on what the patents cover). If they did sue you, a valid patent grant (which you obtain by using React) would be a very strong defence, and would be quite useful.

The value is real...but quite narrow in scope. :)

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#127

Post by khuey »

vbernat wrote: post #118

How did Facebook was able to change the license of RocksDB so easily? The CLA is not a copyright assignment and therefore all contributors have to agree for the change. Did they contact anyone who has signed up the CLA?

On purely copyright grounds, any BSD licensed code can be relicensed as Apache 2.0 code. And the patent grant was solely from Facebook so it can be modified at their discretion.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#128

Post by boulos »

0xbear wrote: post #104

Edit: Caffe2 is similarly afflicted. Torch and PyTorch are not. Some of Torch modules are, however.

You're right about Caffe2 [1], but Torch and PyTorch have existed for a long time and don't seem infected [2] and [3]. For completeness, both TensorFlow [4] and MXNET [5] are Apache 2.

[1] https://github.com/caffe2/caffe2/blob/master/PATENTS

[2] https://github.com/torch/torch7/blob/master/COPYRIGHT.txt

[3] https://github.com/pytorch/pytorch/blob/master/LICENSE

[4] https://github.com/tensorflow/tensorflow/blob/master/LICENSE

[5] https://github.com/dmlc/mxnet/blob/master/LICENSE

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#130

Post by Lazare »

khuey wrote: post #123
Lazare wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't legally use React without a patents license. I'll send you US$50 if you can find ANY evidence this is true in the US, UK, Aus, or Canada. :)

That nobody seems to know whether there are in fact any patents licensed by the patent grant within React is one of the most frustrating things about it.

Agreed. It gives the entire debate a very metaphysical quality. How can I determine the value of a patent grant when I don't know what the patents are, or if they even exist?
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