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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#91

Post by cma »

ori_b wrote: post #62
cma wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS Now where does it say that? The way I read it, so long as you don't sue Facebook, you have a patent grant. If you believe people when they say that their patent portfolios are purely defensive, there is no problem. On the other hand, being the aggressor in a patent lawsuit loses you the patent grant. This seems sane enough to me. The normal state of affairs is com…

> Now where does it say that? [...] If you believe people when they say that their patent portfolios are purely defensive, there is no problem.

Where does it say what? Which part of my post are you taking issue with, because I would love to correct anything.

What it certainly doesn't say is that Facebook's patent portfolio is non-aggressive. And when, outside of this, has Facebook said that about their entire portfolio (I'm not saying they haven't, I just haven't seen that before)?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#92

Post by anthonybullard »

tomelders wrote: post #40
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. But you're not wrong, preact is a great alternative to react and it comes with a permissive license.

Preact is not an alternative I'd reccomend. It's riddled with very serious bugs. I've found it incredibly difficult to work with.

Could I ask what those bugs we're and if you had filed an issue for them? I don't have any deployed projects based on it, but I've played with it and talked to the main dev a couple of times - he's usually very on top of it.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#93

Post by pmontra »

objclxt wrote: post #72
DannyBee wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. " Actually, React is banned at a number of them, and i've personally discussed the issue with a number of fairly concerned counsel. So for better or for worse, i don't believe this is as simple as you make it out to be.

Off the top of my head big users of React include: * Apple (their entire dev docs site is built in it, and they've hosted Bay Area React user meet-ups) * Twitter (for their mobile web) * Microsoft (parts of Visual Studio use it) * Netflix (all over their frontend stack) ...as well as Dropbox, AirBnb, Venmo... So whilst I don't doubt you've discussed it with concerned counsel, there are huge corporations deploying Rea…

Maybe they signed separate agreements with FB. Patents sharing or exceptions. Big corporations do that.

I'd like to ask their legals about why they feel OK using React, but I'm too far away. Is anybody here in touch with them?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#94

Post by kakarot »

snarfy wrote: post #46
softinio wrote: post #4

I really have no idea why react is so popular with such a silly license. I agree with this move. There are plenty of OSS projects out there without patent thing attached to its license so no reason to use react.

Honestly, I didn't read the fine print. I've been having fun playing around with it. I assumed the license was OK considering its popularity.

I'm in the same boat. Hadn't bothered to check out their license yet. Kinda makes me wary about using it for any social platform.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#95

Post by neilparikh »

ori_b wrote: post #89
neilparikh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)? The clause also doesn't explicitly cover software patents only, so if Facebook infringes on your hardware patents (which is plausible, since Facebook does hardware related work as well), you still can't sue them.

> Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)? Why should Facebook support companies that are suing them?

Because they already allowed other people to use it, and it doesn't required extra effort on Facebook's part to allow another company to use it.

I can understand why Facebook would want to have a clause like this (to discourage lawsuits against them), but I would consider it against the spirit of open source to do so (ie. Facebook should be able to continue to do this, but I wouldn't consider React to be open source software in that case).

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#96

Post by cma »

Lazare wrote: post #90
rosser wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a de facto one-way "all your patents are available to us" grant, because you can't sue them if they violate any patents you may have, without ceding your l̶i̶c̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ability to use React. EDIT: better?

> without ceding your license to use React. Ceding your license to use any patents Facebook may or may not have on React. There's a difference.

You can't legally use React without a patents license. The difference between the patents grant and the copyright license is mostly in the timeframe they cover (20 years for patents, 100+ years or whatever for copyright).

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#97

Post by heartbreak »

cma wrote: post #35
numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

My personal interpretation of this is that hypothetically you are likely to value your own patent(s) more than you value the time to re-write your application with something other than React. So if you need to sue Facebook, factor in that you’ll need a re-write as well.

My professional opinion is that if you use React and are concerned about this, talk to your attorney.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#98

Post by jasonkostempski »

snarfy wrote: post #46
softinio wrote: post #4

I really have no idea why react is so popular with such a silly license. I agree with this move. There are plenty of OSS projects out there without patent thing attached to its license so no reason to use react.

Honestly, I didn't read the fine print. I've been having fun playing around with it. I assumed the license was OK considering its popularity.

"I assumed the license was OK considering its popularity."

I would have too. I'm getting into Clojure(Script) where React(Native) seems to be a popular choice for UI. I haven't touched it yet. I hope there's a good alternative when I get around to it because I really like Clojure but I never wanted to rely on anything made by Facebook.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#99

Post by [deleted] »

ori_b wrote: post #89
neilparikh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)? The clause also doesn't explicitly cover software patents only, so if Facebook infringes on your hardware patents (which is plausible, since Facebook does hardware related work as well), you still can't sue them.

> Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)? Why should Facebook support companies that are suing them?

[deleted]

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#100

Post by [deleted] »

FRex wrote: post #43
numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

RakNet does that too (it's owned by Facebook via Occulus for a while now, Facebook bought Occulus then Occulus bought RakNet): https://github.com/facebookarchive/RakNet/blob/master/PATENT... Is this widespread at all or is it just Facebook..? Edit: I'm glad to be downvoted for asking a genuine fucking question if anyone else does this since Apache mentions Facebook and the only place I ran into PATENTS file is anothe…

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