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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

201–210 of 234 posts

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech isn't such a hard concept to understand. Even if you disagree with someone, you don't put them in prison.

Hmm, if Trump speaks for the Russian, persuading the Americans that the US should be colonized by the Russians for 300 years, would you think he should be free doing his presidential business? Especially after he (for example's sake) got awarded some Russian prizes? If he only expresses some views of his, it's probably OK if he's not influential. If he got awarded some prize that's important worldwide and sometimes a…

Would I think it was good? No.

Would that alone be enough that I would ask him to be imprisoned? Never.

You're confusing a dislike of his opinions for justification for jailing him, yet again.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not even close to the core issue. The core issue is that the Chinese government locked someone up for stating an opinion. An opinion not much different in substance than then ones you are stating in this thread. Would you consider it just for you to be imprisoned for your views alone? I would not, and I think that is also true for other people.

Would you consider it just for Snowden to be exiled out of the country? Would you consider it just for Assange to be under house arrest in an Embassy? Would you consider it just for Liu Xiaobo to be under house arrest at his own home? Well, IMHO, all 3 incidents are unjust. However, they all happened. Interestingly, Liu Xiaobo earned a Nobel price, but Snowden didn't. Not sure what would happen if the Chinese governm…

I agree with you on all those fronts. All three should be free, without harassment.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#203
post #67

Now in Chinese weibo.com, if your message includes "javascript", it can not be sent and return "content is illegal!". A guess is that the word "javascript" includes "RIP".

That's just a poor implementation of xss prevention

That's not the case. The problem only started to pop up several hours ago.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样,中国那么大,当然需要三百年殖民地,才会变成今天香港这样,三百年够不够,我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view…

That appears to be just the same quote in Chinese. I'm not sure if it contains more nuance to bring clarity to the situation - perhaps you can assist there? What would also help is more context for the quote. Is it a part of a bigger piece of writing? I'm not asking you to do all the research for me, feel free not to reply - my interest is only really in passing. Though if you do reply feel free to use as much origin…

讀*

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#205

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

> Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced it to make it more acceptable. As Joan Robinson said, "the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all." Being paid for work you do not have to do is not slavery. You see we built this thing called civilization whereby instead of starving when crops fail, dying at age 30 with dysentery and livi…

I'm sure the native Americans would disagree with Joan Robinson.

The fact is there is no opt-out, you do have to participate in the capitalist system to survive, and even if you somehow manage to live in the wilderness, capitalism will eventually come and beat down your door to tell you that the land you're camping on now belongs to someone else, and would you kindly move along? Capitalism claims all resources, then sells them back to you in exchange for your soul. It was this realization that eventually motivated the Unabomber.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#206
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a Kiwi couple who weren't allowed to name their kid Lucifer a few years ago. That name is about as religiously charged too. As a bonus, not being named Mo helps you not get picked for random check-ups.

Its not random- its based on pure statistics. I wished at least "hackers" here would understand. More than that actually, there are politicians who are notorious for being hand-in-gloves in their home countries. They always get picked for these "random" checks in the US.

Of course they are not random. I meant that in a tongue in cheek way. How else would a name affect randomness?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#207
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I posted my comments above because you are blindly defending Liu's repressive comments without providing any 3rd party proof that can be publicly verified. I'm not defending them. I'm questioning the interpretation of the quote posted which doesn't imply should . There is a difference and I can be swayed either way. > when you painted Liu's "China should be colonized by the west for 300 years" comments as some so c…

Check the rest of the thread. A number of people have indicated that there isn't much doubt about the interpretation of Liu's comments. You aren't contributing anything to the discussion by continuing to ask a question that's already been answered by a number of native Chinese speakers.

> that's already been answered by a number of native Chinese speakers.

I don't think it's been answered to a reasonable level of certainty.

The closest to a good answer was one guy who said he'd seen an interview in which the guy clarified that yes he did mean that.

But nobody has been able to find that interview, so to my mind it's still an open question. I'm being very careful to not accept statements of opinion as statements of fact.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样,中国那么大,当然需要三百年殖民地,才会变成今天香港这样,三百年够不够,我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view…

That appears to be just the same quote in Chinese. I'm not sure if it contains more nuance to bring clarity to the situation - perhaps you can assist there? What would also help is more context for the quote. Is it a part of a bigger piece of writing? I'm not asking you to do all the research for me, feel free not to reply - my interest is only really in passing. Though if you do reply feel free to use as much origin…

The interviewer's clarification of context (in Chinese) http://www.open.com.hk/content.php?id=44#.WWoeRjcRWrw

The interviewer says “colonial” is an expression and sarcasm. It’s Liu’s writing style. It’s said to him as he’s Liu’s editor and long time friend, so he understood what Liu meant. Liu did explain what he meant in an article sent to him in 2007.

Some excerpts:

  1. “由此可見,劉曉波的意思是要在中國實行英國在香港推行的資本主義政策,起碼需要三百年,才會變得和香港一樣好。他並不是
      要中國再去當誰的殖民地”
      Liu meant China can benefit from westernisation like HK, he didn’t meant for it to be really
      colonised.

  2. “為甚麼搞「一國兩制,港人治港」?皆出於此:香港人認為殖民地好過共產專制...”
      How to view colonisation is a debated issue in HK, Liu pick it up as he just arrived there.

  3. “曉波從北京發來一篇〈我與開放雜誌結緣十九年〉稿子。文中主動談起八八年那次訪問,寫道... 他說,一句「三百年殖民地」
     的即興回答,成為中共迫害他的「典型證據」,但他不會為自己辯解,「特別是民族主義佔據話語制高點的今日中國,
     我更不想收回這句話。」... 他用一句話來解釋那犯眾怒的「三百年殖民地」之說。即「中國的現代化需要經過長期的西化過
     程方能實現。」”
      He sent me an article mentioned the 88’ interview. He said the prompt answer has been used as 
      an accusation against him. Yet as China’s nationalism is now the highest moral, he will not
      take it back. In the article he explained “300 years’ colonisation”, as “China’s modernisation 
      needs a long process as westernisation.”

  4. “劉曉波被稱為「黑馬」,那放言無忌、一針見血的表達方式,已成為他的標誌… ”
      Liu is an abrupt literature critic. Sarcasm is his writing style.

As a native Chinese, I think Mr. Liu is a rare hero in China. I didn’t think or hear much people was still fighting for democracy in Mainland, since the 89’ Tiananmen crackdown. For it’s risking your job, freedom and putting your family in danger. Not until I heard of Mr. Liu and his persistent work. It’s so sad most of my countrymen don’t even have an access to know who he was and what he really did. Due to the censorship in Mainland, you can’t find any concrete facts about what he did on the internet. Most people searched to know him from “baike”[1],Chinese equivalent of wikipedia. It only mentions his “colonial” comment, offers no facts about his pro-democracy work. I’ve heard college professor who doesn’t know how to use VPN to visit internet outside China asks “Who is Liu Xiaobo? What did he do except making the ‘colonial’ comment?” No wonder some of the hatred towards him. Yet his relentless effort kindled a fire in those who still wish for democracy in China. Just hope his work will be known to ordinary Chinese other than the ‘colonial’ comment in the future. He will be judged fairly and get the respect he deserves from fellow countrymen.

[1] http://baike.baidu.com/link?url=JKnyWvjwNqi81otv8InKVm28EZGa... (in Chinese)

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if Norway was another autocratic state? Economic punishment could have made them bent anyway. Maybe your point is that autocracies bend less than democracies and you could be right: dictators usually don't care about economic sanctions because what they care about is to stay in charge. A poor or wealthy country doesn't matter much. Actually sanctions help them to build a narrative of world against the country an…

Norwegian here! I'd like to take the opportunity to say that the feeling at the time was that we got left out in the storm by ourselves by other western countries once the Chinese sanctions came on. In the direct aftermath everyone else just kinda looked the other way, and in the long run there is no way a tiny country like us can withstand that pressure over time.

I imagine what it should have been like. For once, I didn't even remember the issue. Sorry for that.

I found this analysis comparing the sanctions to Norway and Mongolia and the final result.

https://cpianalysis.org/2017/02/22/the-costs-of-normalisatio...

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#210
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

he was. and in a later interview he clarified he was not joking, nor metaphorically speaking. he said he literally wanted China to be colonised for 300 years. the best explanation I could think of, is that he was young and tried to make an extraordinary statement to express his view. we all did this.

I don’t think he made such an interview. The only time he explained his comments was in an article he sent to the original interviewer Jin Zhong in 2007. Jin later wrote to clarify the context of the comment in 2011. As by then Liu was in jail and never offered an explanation publicly. People have turned to Jin for clarification.
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