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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

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Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#41

Post by ruleabidinguser »

dis-sys wrote: post #34
redial wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated Who gets to decide what is or is not allowed to be spoken? > Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. Even if it is repressive, preventing him to say it by arresting him and his family is not repressive to you?

> Who gets to decide what is or is not allowed to be spoken? You can spend your entire life arguing whether it is good or bad for China to be colonized by the west for 300 years, I am not going to waste my time on that.

And by your words no one else is allowed to either? Why?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#42

Post by gcb0 »

mattmanser wrote: post #31
theseadroid wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one suggestion from a Chinese perspective: Can you guys fix your democracy first? If you can't set a good example on how good democracy can be, then there's no incentives for any other countries to follow. You realize that US influence can never achieve anything without the citizens of China agree with it right? Like now majority of Chinese think your political system is a joke. And you know what? The majority…

Fix what? Your government is the one telling you it's broken. Your idea of US democracy has been spoon fed to you by your government. You're throwing stones from a greenhouse. While US democracy isnt a particularly good form as it puts too much power in the executive branch, it's overly partisan and two-party, there's nothing fundamentally broken about it. There's disadvantages to proportional representation, which w…

the two party is a problem, despite you not seeing it. and the cult of personality instead of ideological elections is mostly what the Chinese media mocks the west for.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#43

Post by redial »

dis-sys wrote: post #34
redial wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated Who gets to decide what is or is not allowed to be spoken? > Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. Even if it is repressive, preventing him to say it by arresting him and his family is not repressive to you?

> Who gets to decide what is or is not allowed to be spoken? You can spend your entire life arguing whether it is good or bad for China to be colonized by the west for 300 years, I am not going to waste my time on that.

Sure, it might be a stupid argument, why is it banned again?

Oh, you just don't like it.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#44

Post by amygdyl »

taway_1212 wrote: post #22
jknoepfler wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under what conditions, exactly, do you think democracy originally came to be? This is a really bizarre, historically nonsensical comment that is unnecessarily dismissive of people who have sacrificed lives or livelihoods to pave the way for fundamental human rights in their country.

Democracy used to include only middle and upper class people (i.e. you had to have some wealth to be able to vote) and was only relatively recently extended to everyone.

Exactly.

In my father's life, it was not allowed to vote unless you were the owner outright of property and women gained suffrage in his early years. My father lacked a birth certificate, and this prevented him from voting, until resolved. Imagine every child of a single parent family disenfranchised...

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#45

Post by ideal0227 »

jackvalentine wrote: post #37
dis-sys wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。

I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong.

I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view about changing China through colonial no matter what he tries to justify. And I believe no rational Chinese people will agree him on this.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#46

Post by redial »

ideal0227 wrote: post #33
redial wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated Who gets to decide what is or is not allowed to be spoken? > Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. Even if it is repressive, preventing him to say it by arresting him and his family is not repressive to you?

> Even if it is repressive, preventing him to say it by arresting him and his family is not repressive to you? Are you sure he was arrest because of saying that? Do you have any facts to support your view? > Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. Do you think Liu deserves Nobel Peace Prize after saying that publicly? Remember that the…

> Do you think Liu deserves Nobel Peace Prize after saying that publicly?

I don't care one way or the other, it's the Nobel committee's decision who they award the prize to. It makes no difference to me. It doesn't make what he, or any other Nobel Laureate say any more true or worthy of consideration.

> Remember that the argument was "There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated".

There was no argument, it was a statement. If you want to argue in favor of why some views should never be publicly stated and who is gonna decide what is/is not allowed, go ahead.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#47

Post by PhasmaFelis »

gcb0 wrote: post #42
mattmanser wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fix what? Your government is the one telling you it's broken. Your idea of US democracy has been spoon fed to you by your government. You're throwing stones from a greenhouse. While US democracy isnt a particularly good form as it puts too much power in the executive branch, it's overly partisan and two-party, there's nothing fundamentally broken about it. There's disadvantages to proportional representation, which w…

the two party is a problem, despite you not seeing it. and the cult of personality instead of ideological elections is mostly what the Chinese media mocks the west for.

The two-party system absolutely is a problem, but it's still better than a one-party system.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#48

Post by dis-sys »

jackvalentine wrote: post #37
dis-sys wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

he made that argument almost 30 years ago, he never offered any explanation or clarification to state that his comments were just a comparison.

note that:

1. he had numerous interviews after publicly making that comments. 2. he is widely criticised for that even by his peers, if that was an misunderstanding, why he refused to offer any clarification?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#49

Post by pavlov »

ideal0227 wrote: post #45
jackvalentine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view…

Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#50

Post by amygdyl »

pavanred wrote: post #38
gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

We can't just simply discount the effect of the Nobel prize and world media coverage of Liu Xiaobo. I am reading the book Perfect Hostage by Justin Wintle, it's about the life of Aung San Suu Kyi. And, yes there were a lot of Burmese people and their leader who fought fearlessly for democracy, but I think in addition to that there is a real sizable effect of Suu Kyi winning the Nobel peace prize and world media cover…

I absolutely agree with your premise.

But I cannot help but feel saddened, to reduce the prize to a level of the publicity it conveys.

Neither can I eradicate the thought that awarding such a prize in this manner surely is felt as a provocation by the Chinese government as you rightly point out that the sole effect is of publicising and canonising a man whom they are, by their values, imprisoning justly for admitted subversion.

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