I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009) • Hacker News Board

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#11

Post by 23lk4jj4j2 » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 7:12 AM UTC

zuolan wrote: post #8

As a Chinese, I need to clarify some facts. I think that the Communist Party of China made a really big mistake, which caused a serious impact on China's national image. But I also do not agree with Liu Xiaobo's political views. Finally, China's political environment indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts, including the Liu Xiaobo event.

As someone who visits China almost every year, and has spent quite a lot of time there including for study please consider what I'm going to say not as a criticism, but an attempt to help you understand how your words will likely be received.

You haven't clarified any facts, you've just made two statements of opinion without any supporting evidence or greater explanation.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#12

Post by stenl » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 7:13 AM UTC

zuolan wrote: post #8

As a Chinese, I need to clarify some facts. I think that the Communist Party of China made a really big mistake, which caused a serious impact on China's national image. But I also do not agree with Liu Xiaobo's political views. Finally, China's political environment indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts, including the Liu Xiaobo event.

It's fine to disagree with his political views. That's precisely his point: the freedom to disagree is the foundation of a free society.

What facts were distorted? That he was jailed, multiple times, for defending freedom of expression? That he died in custody? That his wife Liu Xia was under house arrest for years without charges? Or was it his role during the Tiananmen protests and subsequent massacre? That he negotiated the free passage of students from Tiananmen, saving many from the advancing tanks?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#13

Post by dis-sys » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 7:16 AM UTC

larrysalibra wrote: post #2

If aren't sure who Liu Xiaobo is or want to learn more, this essay by China expert Perry Link is excellent: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/13/the-passion-of-liu-x...

Such censored view is not good for anyone.

"It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that

"progress in China depends on westernisation and the more westernisation, the more progress."

Western, independent source here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-...

I thought China should be allowed to preserve it own culture and independence. Liu seemed to hold a quite different idea.

btw, it must be quite a shock for you to know such fact. I mean please feel free to downvote if you agree with Liu's very repressive view on how China should be colonized by the west for 300 years to get better argument. The whole "progress in China depends on westernisation" also sounds like a cultural genocide to me.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#14

Post by gentro » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 7:16 AM UTC

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better?

China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready for their message of political openness. They're still focused on lower levels of the Maslow hierarchy like shelter and food.

These dissidents have the bad luck of poor timing. In another 30 or 40 years when China is fully developed, their ideas may be well accepted among citizenry and party reformers.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#15

Post by yurofish » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 7:17 AM UTC

sk0g wrote: post #10

yurofish wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure banning kids from being named a certain name really compares to the actual human rights violations at place in China...

There was a Kiwi couple who weren't allowed to name their kid Lucifer a few years ago. That name is about as religiously charged too. As a bonus, not being named Mo helps you not get picked for random check-ups.

My point is that these are pretty petty problems compared to actual travesties committed by the Chinese government. There are bigger fish to fry than what you can name your child.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#16

Post by dis-sys » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 7:19 AM UTC

stenl wrote: post #12

zuolan wrote: post #8

As a Chinese, I need to clarify some facts. I think that the Communist Party of China made a really big mistake, which caused a serious impact on China's national image. But I also do not agree with Liu Xiaobo's political views. Finally, China's political environment indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts, including the Liu Xiaobo event.

It's fine to disagree with his political views. That's precisely his point: the freedom to disagree is the foundation of a free society. What facts were distorted? That he was jailed, multiple times, for defending freedom of expression? That he died in custody? That his wife Liu Xia was under house arrest for years without charges? Or was it his role during the Tiananmen protests and subsequent massacre? That he nego…

There are certain views that should never ever be publicly stated, e.g. Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-...

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#17

Post by theseadroid » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 7:26 AM UTC

TokenDiversity wrote: post #3

I'm surprised China gets away with so much! They recently banned kids from being named Mohammad. And had Imams dance. I wish our war-mongering republicans would switch their attention to countries that really violate human rights. EDIT: Of course they do much worse, I was pointing to the fact that not a peep was heard on Fox or CNN.

Here's one suggestion from a Chinese perspective: Can you guys fix your democracy first? If you can't set a good example on how good democracy can be, then there's no incentives for any other countries to follow.

You realize that US influence can never achieve anything without the citizens of China agree with it right? Like now majority of Chinese think your political system is a joke. And you know what? The majority of Chinese like those policies that's violating certain human rights. If US can only be ever weaker as time goes by then the values you hold dear can only be more insignificant in other part of the world.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#18

Post by mc32 » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 7:27 AM UTC

gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

>You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better?

Not really. Imagine if the Nobel institute only granted the prize to Europeans. Imagine the furore that would cause. Now, sure, the winners have often been controversial. Here, I can't disagree. I mean, what's not to like about someone who wants to change their own country for the better?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#19

Post by tsukaisute » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 7:29 AM UTC

zuolan wrote: post #8

As a Chinese, I need to clarify some facts. I think that the Communist Party of China made a really big mistake, which caused a serious impact on China's national image. But I also do not agree with Liu Xiaobo's political views. Finally, China's political environment indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts, including the Liu Xiaobo event.

。

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#20

Post by jknoepfler » Sat, Jul 15, 2017, 7:31 AM UTC

gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

Under what conditions, exactly, do you think democracy originally came to be? This is a really bizarre, historically nonsensical comment that is unnecessarily dismissive of people who have sacrificed lives or livelihoods to pave the way for fundamental human rights in their country.