Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 234 posts

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#161

Post by echaozh »

colordrops wrote: post #59
ideal0227 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view…

I can read Chinese as well and I don't see anything opinionated in that quote. There is nothing that says anything positive or negative about Hong Kong. It just says that he suspects that China would have to be colonized for 300 years to reach the same state as Hong Kong, due to its large size. He does not say whether it would be a good or bad thing. I don't even notice an undertone.

He doesn't need to say if it's good or bad. Google "china africa neo colonialism" to decide for your self if colonization is a good thing for the colonized countries in the eyes of the Western people, unless you think the Chinese merchants and the government behind them are meaning well toward the African poor?

If colonization is a good thing, why in the first place the colonies all sought independence as soon as they had a chance?

Why should China be colonized if colonization is not a good thing (for the Chinese people)?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#162

Post by lr4444lr »

comradeHulaHula wrote: post #135
pmontra wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if Norway was another autocratic state? Economic punishment could have made them bent anyway. Maybe your point is that autocracies bend less than democracies and you could be right: dictators usually don't care about economic sanctions because what they care about is to stay in charge. A poor or wealthy country doesn't matter much. Actually sanctions help them to build a narrative of world against the country an…

Norwegian here! I'd like to take the opportunity to say that the feeling at the time was that we got left out in the storm by ourselves by other western countries once the Chinese sanctions came on. In the direct aftermath everyone else just kinda looked the other way, and in the long run there is no way a tiny country like us can withstand that pressure over time.

Do you and your countrymen ever doubt whether the potential political toxicity of the prize is worth it for Norway to maintain sole administration? Has there ever been talk of transferring it to something like a multi-country consortium under the U.N.?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#163

Post by echaozh »

literallycancer wrote: post #156
ideal0227 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two core issues: 1. Liu is not acceptable by a lot of Chinese people due to his aggressive words on colonial and slavers. 2. Liu was sentenced by the gov due to "subversion". So to judge Liu, we have to look from at least two different angles, not just "he was sentenced". Few people thinks 2 is right. I, personally, do not agree on 2 too. And I am now thinking why most people outside China only know about 2…

Freedom of speech isn't such a hard concept to understand. Even if you disagree with someone, you don't put them in prison.

Hmm, if Trump speaks for the Russian, persuading the Americans that the US should be colonized by the Russians for 300 years, would you think he should be free doing his presidential business? Especially after he (for example's sake) got awarded some Russian prizes?

If he only expresses some views of his, it's probably OK if he's not influential. If he got awarded some prize that's important worldwide and sometimes awarded to POTUS, well, it's totally a different thing.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#164

Post by js8 »

jdietrich wrote: post #158
js8 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the two party is a problem Although as a European I disagree with some specifics of U.S. culture (and also American foreign policy), I have to say U.S. democracy is actually surprisingly strong at the more local level. Lots of states have semi-direct democracy instruments, for example town halls and referenda. People have it in their blood.

By the same token, elected judges and sheriffs have largely been a disaster, especially in states with partisan elections for those offices. Direct democracy is a very dangerous tool.

Not sure about that, however I do not consider direct election of officials to be a form of direct democracy, it's representative democracy. I know for many people the difference is confusing, but direct democracy means direct voting about issues, not voting for parties or people.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#165

Post by eru »

dis-sys wrote: post #13
larrysalibra wrote: post #2

If aren't sure who Liu Xiaobo is or want to learn more, this essay by China expert Perry Link is excellent: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/13/the-passion-of-liu-x...

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

> I thought China should be allowed to preserve it own culture and independence.

Alas, the 'cultural revolution' destroyed most of that culture. You can still find some remnants of parts of it in the overseas chinese communities of southeast asia.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#166

Post by OnlineCourage »

dis-sys wrote: post #55
pavlov wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?

how about just focus on the core issue here? the core issue here is how come someone with such an extremist style view got awarded a nobel prize. or you may want to explain to me how this whole "China needs to be colonized by the west for 300 years" crap is not extremist style.

Ok, here is another quote from Xiaobo in 1990 which shows that he did not hold extremist views as you falsely claim:

My tendency to idealize Western civilization arises from my nationalistic desire to use the West in order to reform China. But this has led me to overlook the flaws in Western culture — or, even if I see them, to set them aside intentionally. I have not, therefore, been able to stand apart from Western culture, take a critical view of it and perhaps get a better view of human frailty more generally. I have been obsequious toward Western civilization, exaggerating its merits, and at the same time exaggerating my own merits. I have viewed the West as if it were not only the salvation of China but also the natural and ultimate destination of all humanity.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#167

Post by chj »

ideal0227 wrote: post #45
jackvalentine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view…

Well, I am from China too. Unlike some of my fellow countrymen, I don't find it offensive at all because I know the speaker is a true patriot who cares about basic human rights for every Chinese and fights for the cause until his very end. This statement is more about the weakness of Chinese citizen than an actual call for China to be colonized. It is brought up during an interview[1], and for some reason Liu may be speaking with a hot head and a big mouth. Let's stop attacking Liu's character with just one careless sentence.

May him rest in peace.

[1]: The interviewer's clarification of context (in Chinese) http://www.open.com.hk/content.php?id=44#.WWoeRjcRWrw

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#168

Post by escapetech »

maaaats wrote: post #74

As an aside, even though the Norwegian government has nothing to do with the prize, China quickly ended lots of relations with Norway, losing Norwegian companies billions. Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu, to not sour what they have spent years trying to fix. Weak.

> Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu

As it should be. Speaking up would only draw more attention to Norway's unscrupulous actions in conflicted and autocratic regions, especially considering its public image of neutrality, diplomacy, non-interference, and promoting progressive values. Denmark and Sweden are also in this as well - they say they promote human rights while exporting billions of euros in military technology and services to regions with known human rights abuses.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#169

Post by HowardMei »

maaaats wrote: post #74

As an aside, even though the Norwegian government has nothing to do with the prize, China quickly ended lots of relations with Norway, losing Norwegian companies billions. Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu, to not sour what they have spent years trying to fix. Weak.

Not weak, but fragile.

In fact, the government structure designed by Lisi in Qin dynasty 2000 years ago, and still being used today, is a fragile structure in peaceful times. It's a structure designed for war and the law enforcement tends to vanish if no direct threats are present to ordinary people. The central government will lose authority if the officials cannot contain dissenters, especially those who may be backed up by the provincial government officials.

Liu tried to restructure the aforementioned political structure through 08 Charter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_08

We still don't know the details about what he actually had done besides drafting the manifesto.If he tried to create a political group to materialize the 08 Charter, then it's definitely a substantial threat to the central government and even to most of the Chinese people, though it would be a trivial issue in any western countries.

The Norwegian government officials apparently had no idea about the severity of backing a dissenter challenging the central government in China due to cultural gap. In fact, many NGOs failed the same way in China. Those few who helps the central government are successful though.

Liu spotted many flaws in the current political structure that many Chinese people know for years. Even scholars in northern Song dynasty and late Ming dynasty also tried to fix the same drawbacks Liu mentioned, but they failed miserably and gave up the entire civilization to Mongolians and Manchurians.

In my opinion, Liu's importance is exaggerated by western media. His solution to our centuries-old problem is completely non-realistic and very dangerous. Ordinary Chinese people will laugh at his naiveness instead of respecting his idealism.

To do a successful political system reform to attain the same achievements that western civilization has obtained through hundreds of years of improvement, China needs to meet Chinese people's most urgent demands step by step and reason from First Principles instead of mimic any model countries.

It's kind of similar to the way for a startup to succeed.

Edit: Added the Norwegian government paragraph and fixed some grammar issues.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#170

Post by chj »

theseadroid wrote: post #17
TokenDiversity wrote: post #3

I'm surprised China gets away with so much! They recently banned kids from being named Mohammad. And had Imams dance. I wish our war-mongering republicans would switch their attention to countries that really violate human rights. EDIT: Of course they do much worse, I was pointing to the fact that not a peep was heard on Fox or CNN.

Here's one suggestion from a Chinese perspective: Can you guys fix your democracy first? If you can't set a good example on how good democracy can be, then there's no incentives for any other countries to follow. You realize that US influence can never achieve anything without the citizens of China agree with it right? Like now majority of Chinese think your political system is a joke. And you know what? The majority…

The majority of Chinese ruling class who send their children to US surely think different.
Post reply on HN