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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

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Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#61

Post by pavanred »

amygdyl wrote: post #50
pavanred wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can't just simply discount the effect of the Nobel prize and world media coverage of Liu Xiaobo. I am reading the book Perfect Hostage by Justin Wintle, it's about the life of Aung San Suu Kyi. And, yes there were a lot of Burmese people and their leader who fought fearlessly for democracy, but I think in addition to that there is a real sizable effect of Suu Kyi winning the Nobel peace prize and world media cover…

I absolutely agree with your premise. But I cannot help but feel saddened, to reduce the prize to a level of the publicity it conveys. Neither can I eradicate the thought that awarding such a prize in this manner surely is felt as a provocation by the Chinese government as you rightly point out that the sole effect is of publicising and canonising a man whom they are, by their values, imprisoning justly for admitted…

It's definitely more than just publicity. There's a difference. Being on the cover of a Time magazine is publicity. But a Nobel Prize (or similar recognition) is not just publicity. It's elevating a person to the same stature as Nelson Mandela, MLK etc. It's hope to the people following them, it's inspiration, it's recognition. It's a signal to the establishment that it's no longer just a dissident but perhaps birth of a movement, if history has taught us anything. It's definitely more. If not anything, there is a big chunk of prize money, it generally is put to use for a good cause too. :)

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#62

Post by pavlov »

ideal0227 wrote: post #54
pavlov wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?

What are you trying to say? Is this a question related to my last view or trying to question me?! I cannot figure your point really.

I'm honestly curious to know if you feel that his treatment by the Chinese authorities was just (i.e. in proportion to the perceived crime).

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#63

Post by throwa34943way »

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989.

To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced it to make it more acceptable. It's also a proof that capitalism doesn't need democracy or free-speech to function.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#64

Post by redial »

dis-sys wrote: post #57
redial wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think Liu deserves Nobel Peace Prize after saying that publicly? I don't care one way or the other, it's the Nobel committee's decision who they award the prize to. It makes no difference to me. It doesn't make what he, or any other Nobel Laureate say any more true or worthy of consideration. > Remember that the argument was "There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated". There was no arg…

you came to this thread largely because Liu is not a random dude on street, he had the nobel peace prize. if you want to argue "I don't care", you need to back yourself up better. the core issue here is simple: how come such a man who repeatedly made such extremist styles comments in public got awarded the nobel peace prize.

> the core issue here is simple: how come such a man who repeatedly made such extremist styles comments in public got awarded the nobel peace prize.

That is your issue, not mine.

> you came to this thread largely because Liu is not a random dude on street, he had the nobel peace prize.

I am here because of the outrageous comment you made about ‘certain views that should never ever be publicly stated’. If you can’t defend your opinions then why are you here? Can you, or can you not explain how do you support your extremist views?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#65

Post by jaggederest »

dis-sys wrote: post #55
pavlov wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?

how about just focus on the core issue here? the core issue here is how come someone with such an extremist style view got awarded a nobel prize. or you may want to explain to me how this whole "China needs to be colonized by the west for 300 years" crap is not extremist style.

That is not even close to the core issue.

The core issue is that the Chinese government locked someone up for stating an opinion. An opinion not much different in substance than then ones you are stating in this thread.

Would you consider it just for you to be imprisoned for your views alone? I would not, and I think that is also true for other people.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#66

Post by ideal0227 »

colordrops wrote: post #59
ideal0227 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 三百年殖民地。香港一百年殖民地变成今天这样，中国那么大，当然需要三百年殖民地，才会变成今天香港这样，三百年够不够，我还有怀疑。 I am a decently educated Chinese native speaker. The quoted Chinese sentence from Liu is not acceptable to me. I do not think it is a direct comparison against HongKong. I am fine with him arguing about changing the political situation of China or whatsoever. And, actually, the discussion on that should be more open. However, I cannot agree on his view…

I can read Chinese as well and I don't see anything opinionated in that quote. There is nothing that says anything positive or negative about Hong Kong. It just says that he suspects that China would have to be colonized for 300 years to reach the same state as Hong Kong, due to its large size. He does not say whether it would be a good or bad thing. I don't even notice an undertone.

> I can read Chinese as well

I am a native Chinese, which also implies I understand more of the language context. Also it implies I probably can share more of the sentiment as other Chinese people do. So, yes, there is a difference between how people view the exact same content. And I was trying to clarify that.

> China would have to be colonized for 300 years to reach the same state as Hong Kong

Why China needs to reach the same state as Hongkong through Colonial? Does he feel HongKong was at a worse state compared to China at that point? Or HongKong was at a better state?

And, yes, no matter what state Hongkong was at due to the Colonial, China SHOULD NEVER go that path. That is where I cannot agree with Liu.

Any one can justify his words. But I will still hold my opinion on this specific issue after I read quite a lot about Liu, about what he said, about what he wrote, in both Chinese and English articles and documentary.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#68

Post by philippnagel »

throwa34943way wrote: post #63

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

Capitalism needs government guaranteed private property. Was there ever the need for anything else?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#69

Post by js8 »

gcb0 wrote: post #42
mattmanser wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fix what? Your government is the one telling you it's broken. Your idea of US democracy has been spoon fed to you by your government. You're throwing stones from a greenhouse. While US democracy isnt a particularly good form as it puts too much power in the executive branch, it's overly partisan and two-party, there's nothing fundamentally broken about it. There's disadvantages to proportional representation, which w…

the two party is a problem, despite you not seeing it. and the cult of personality instead of ideological elections is mostly what the Chinese media mocks the west for.

> the two party is a problem

Although as a European I disagree with some specifics of U.S. culture (and also American foreign policy), I have to say U.S. democracy is actually surprisingly strong at the more local level. Lots of states have semi-direct democracy instruments, for example town halls and referenda. People have it in their blood.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#70

Post by michaelmrose »

dis-sys wrote: post #13
larrysalibra wrote: post #2

If aren't sure who Liu Xiaobo is or want to learn more, this essay by China expert Perry Link is excellent: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/13/the-passion-of-liu-x...

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

Cultural genocide is an abomination of a term. It misappropriates a word that conjures up unspeakable horror of mass extermination in order to make suppression of cultural activities / works as bad as mass murder. Its about as bad as statutory rape.
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