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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

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Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#151

Post by jackvalentine »

wangii wrote: post #110
jackvalentine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

he was. and in a later interview he clarified he was not joking, nor metaphorically speaking. he said he literally wanted China to be colonised for 300 years. the best explanation I could think of, is that he was young and tried to make an extraordinary statement to express his view. we all did this.

I would love to see that interview! Link? That pretty much solves it and leaves no room for doubt.

> the best explanation I could think of, is that he was young and tried to make an extraordinary statement to express his view. we all did this.

That is a very charitable interpretation. It's a difficult thing to view view someone's contentious statements through a kind lens like that. I don't mean to lay it on thick but in a thread with a lot of hostility I'm thankful for your thoughtful contribution.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#152

Post by seanmcdirmid »

foldr wrote: post #148
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does take reams of propaganda to deflect on how America doesn't overwhelmingly love their dear leader, or how the press can be allowed to openly criticize him. Imagine if Xi had such a low approval rating, or if such an approval rating was even allowed to be measured. I would claim that someone like Trump shows us just how robust western democracy really is (if we survive him, of course!).

>It does take reams of propaganda to deflect on how America doesn't overwhelmingly love their dear leader Does Chinese propaganda deflect on this? I can only check their English language media, but they don't exactly seem to be trying to keep it a secret: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2017-01/20/content_2801... >I would claim that someone like Trump shows us just how robust western democracy really is (if we s…

The Chinese press has gone super soft on Trump in the last few months, and they rarely talk about his discontentment at home. But that isn't much evidence, of course.

My comment on robustness is a bit tongue and cheek. Democracy provides pressure valves via elections (vs. brittle revolutions), so is a bit more stable than an autocracy, while American government provides further stability via separation of powers and checks and balances. I honestly think we will be ok with Trump, he can't do too much damage on his own, well, except for that whole nuclear football thing.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#153

Post by jdietrich »

jaggederest wrote: post #65
dis-sys wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how about just focus on the core issue here? the core issue here is how come someone with such an extremist style view got awarded a nobel prize. or you may want to explain to me how this whole "China needs to be colonized by the west for 300 years" crap is not extremist style.

That is not even close to the core issue. The core issue is that the Chinese government locked someone up for stating an opinion. An opinion not much different in substance than then ones you are stating in this thread. Would you consider it just for you to be imprisoned for your views alone? I would not, and I think that is also true for other people.

>Would you consider it just for you to be imprisoned for your views alone?

In most western democracies, you can be imprisoned for a multitude of "thought crimes" - denying the holocaust, inciting racial or religious hatred, encouraging acts of terrorism etc.

The US has uniquely strong protections for free speech, but even there I expect that many people would support a ban on certain kinds of speech. How many Fox News viewers believe that jihadi preachers should be locked up? How many New York Times readers believe that white supremacists should be locked up?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#154

Post by sangnoir »

withholding wrote: post #130
hunglee2 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weakness is democracy. The Norwegian governing party - whoever it is - now knows that China's default position to perceived outside interference is disproportionate economic punishment, leading to pressure on the living standards of the voters they depend on. Autocratic states have discovered a critical weakness in the representative democracy and there's little we can currently do about it

Democracies can choose not to trade with dictatorship.

True. However, the parties currently in government when that decision is made would prefer not to be voted out of power due to economic pressures.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#155

Post by jdietrich »

pavanred wrote: post #38
gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

We can't just simply discount the effect of the Nobel prize and world media coverage of Liu Xiaobo. I am reading the book Perfect Hostage by Justin Wintle, it's about the life of Aung San Suu Kyi. And, yes there were a lot of Burmese people and their leader who fought fearlessly for democracy, but I think in addition to that there is a real sizable effect of Suu Kyi winning the Nobel peace prize and world media cover…

Suu Kyi gained her freedom, won an election, then ignored a genocide.

Democracy is not magic. A failing state is a failing state, regardless of the system of government. Great rebels rarely make for great politicians.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/rohingya-muslim... https://theintercept.com/2017/04/13/burmese-nobel-prize-winn...

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#156

Post by literallycancer »

ideal0227 wrote: post #128
jaggederest wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not even close to the core issue. The core issue is that the Chinese government locked someone up for stating an opinion. An opinion not much different in substance than then ones you are stating in this thread. Would you consider it just for you to be imprisoned for your views alone? I would not, and I think that is also true for other people.

There are two core issues: 1. Liu is not acceptable by a lot of Chinese people due to his aggressive words on colonial and slavers. 2. Liu was sentenced by the gov due to "subversion". So to judge Liu, we have to look from at least two different angles, not just "he was sentenced". Few people thinks 2 is right. I, personally, do not agree on 2 too. And I am now thinking why most people outside China only know about 2…

Freedom of speech isn't such a hard concept to understand. Even if you disagree with someone, you don't put them in prison.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#157

Post by literallycancer »

amygdyl wrote: post #40
charsifood wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: @dang, please remove my post.

"My tendency to idealize Western civilization arises from my nationalistic desire to use the West in order to reform China" I cannot read this without translating it in the way I imagined it would be heard in the offices of power, to mean he is freely admitting to the desire to subvert his own nation with foreign culture, no matter or difference his meaning or intent. I'm being as literal as ever I can be, but I have…

That's pretty much what happens any time someone tries to improve their country though. You look at what works elsewhere, and then you do it.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#158

Post by jdietrich »

js8 wrote: post #69
gcb0 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the two party is a problem, despite you not seeing it. and the cult of personality instead of ideological elections is mostly what the Chinese media mocks the west for.

> the two party is a problem Although as a European I disagree with some specifics of U.S. culture (and also American foreign policy), I have to say U.S. democracy is actually surprisingly strong at the more local level. Lots of states have semi-direct democracy instruments, for example town halls and referenda. People have it in their blood.

By the same token, elected judges and sheriffs have largely been a disaster, especially in states with partisan elections for those offices. Direct democracy is a very dangerous tool.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#159

Post by echaozh »

jaggederest wrote: post #65
dis-sys wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how about just focus on the core issue here? the core issue here is how come someone with such an extremist style view got awarded a nobel prize. or you may want to explain to me how this whole "China needs to be colonized by the west for 300 years" crap is not extremist style.

That is not even close to the core issue. The core issue is that the Chinese government locked someone up for stating an opinion. An opinion not much different in substance than then ones you are stating in this thread. Would you consider it just for you to be imprisoned for your views alone? I would not, and I think that is also true for other people.

Would you consider it just for Snowden to be exiled out of the country?

Would you consider it just for Assange to be under house arrest in an Embassy?

Would you consider it just for Liu Xiaobo to be under house arrest at his own home?

Well, IMHO, all 3 incidents are unjust. However, they all happened.

Interestingly, Liu Xiaobo earned a Nobel price, but Snowden didn't. Not sure what would happen if the Chinese government awarded Snowden or Assange some special prizes.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#160

Post by literallycancer »

factsaresacred wrote: post #90
throwa34943way wrote: post #63

To some in the west, China is a land of opportunities, a booming economy with tech giants and a supply chain for the industrial world. To others it's a bloody dictatorship that assassinated thousands of people for the sole crime of speaking their mind in 1989. To me it's the embodiment of the hypocrisy of the west when it comes to the defense human rights. Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced…

> Let's be frank, we didn't abolish slavery, we just outsourced it to make it more acceptable. As Joan Robinson said, "the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all." Being paid for work you do not have to do is not slavery. You see we built this thing called civilization whereby instead of starving when crops fail, dying at age 30 with dysentery and livi…

If your only options are "work here" and "die of starvation", then I'm not sure you can really call it a decision at all. Frequently the people doing the work can not, in fact, make any decisions. The guy who owns the factory, on the other hand, will make sure his thugs beat up anyone who brings up fire safety or asks for better working conditions. If that's not slavery, then what is?
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