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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

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Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#31

Post by mattmanser »

theseadroid wrote: post #17
TokenDiversity wrote: post #3

I'm surprised China gets away with so much! They recently banned kids from being named Mohammad. And had Imams dance. I wish our war-mongering republicans would switch their attention to countries that really violate human rights. EDIT: Of course they do much worse, I was pointing to the fact that not a peep was heard on Fox or CNN.

Here's one suggestion from a Chinese perspective: Can you guys fix your democracy first? If you can't set a good example on how good democracy can be, then there's no incentives for any other countries to follow. You realize that US influence can never achieve anything without the citizens of China agree with it right? Like now majority of Chinese think your political system is a joke. And you know what? The majority…

Fix what? Your government is the one telling you it's broken. Your idea of US democracy has been spoon fed to you by your government. You're throwing stones from a greenhouse.

While US democracy isnt a particularly good form as it puts too much power in the executive branch, it's overly partisan and two-party, there's nothing fundamentally broken about it. There's disadvantages to proportional representation, which would break the two party rule, and as we see with Trump, an autocratic president seems, in reality, pretty ineffectual when the other arms.of government start balking at their demands.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#32

Post by mozey »

gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

> most Chinese are probably not ready for their message of political openness

Isn't this exactly the problem. Someone else deciding what you are ready or not ready for. For me democracy is about everyone having a voice, even those on the lower levels. There will always be different levels.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#33

Post by ideal0227 »

redial wrote: post #23
dis-sys wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are certain views that should never ever be publicly stated, e.g. Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-...

> There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated Who gets to decide what is or is not allowed to be spoken? > Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. Even if it is repressive, preventing him to say it by arresting him and his family is not repressive to you?

> Even if it is repressive, preventing him to say it by arresting him and his family is not repressive to you?

Are you sure he was arrest because of saying that? Do you have any facts to support your view?

> Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me.

Do you think Liu deserves Nobel Peace Prize after saying that publicly?

Remember that the argument was "There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated".

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#34

Post by dis-sys »

redial wrote: post #23
dis-sys wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are certain views that should never ever be publicly stated, e.g. Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/15/nobel-...

> There is certain views that should never ever be publicly stated Who gets to decide what is or is not allowed to be spoken? > Liu said China needs to be colonized for 300 years to get better, is it just free of speech? sound quite repressive to me. Even if it is repressive, preventing him to say it by arresting him and his family is not repressive to you?

> Who gets to decide what is or is not allowed to be spoken?

You can spend your entire life arguing whether it is good or bad for China to be colonized by the west for 300 years, I am not going to waste my time on that.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#35

Post by colordrops »

23lk4jj4j2 wrote: post #11
zuolan wrote: post #8

As a Chinese, I need to clarify some facts. I think that the Communist Party of China made a really big mistake, which caused a serious impact on China's national image. But I also do not agree with Liu Xiaobo's political views. Finally, China's political environment indeed bad, but most of the Western media coverage distorted the facts, including the Liu Xiaobo event.

As someone who visits China almost every year, and has spent quite a lot of time there including for study please consider what I'm going to say not as a criticism, but an attempt to help you understand how your words will likely be received. You haven't clarified any facts, you've just made two statements of opinion without any supporting evidence or greater explanation.

As someone who lived in china for 9 years, and married a Chinese woman, perhaps you could recognize that you might live in a very specific bubble in a culture very different from China, and that the perspective is so different that reaching out and trying to understand this person's world view might be more productive than tritely dismissing the comment on technicalities.

I hate China's government and the way they operate but I also recognize that the world is very complex and cultures are ancient and have very different but also successful mechanisms of operation. On the same note I would not write off an American's perspective because the president is a wack job.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#36

Post by amygdyl »

dis-sys wrote: post #13
larrysalibra wrote: post #2

If aren't sure who Liu Xiaobo is or want to learn more, this essay by China expert Perry Link is excellent: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/13/the-passion-of-liu-x...

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

I always felt that China simply faced much starker realities and choices than ever we are able to fully appreciate when we complain about the systems they have.

I'm no Sinophile, and I think Great Britain should have built a floating desalination plant before ceding Hong Kong Island. But the little I know about Chinas history, the fragmentation of historically antagonistic races among the Chinese diaspora we call a people, and the immense variety of issues that have developed in isolation unique to their world, I believe all conspire to alienate the most rational observers from true neutrality. My mind blows fuses just contemplating the pressures and tensions that abound seemingly everywhere in their daily lives.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#37

Post by jackvalentine »

dis-sys wrote: post #13
larrysalibra wrote: post #2

If aren't sure who Liu Xiaobo is or want to learn more, this essay by China expert Perry Link is excellent: http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/07/13/the-passion-of-liu-x...

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

Is he actually arguing that China should be colonised? Or just making a comparison with Hong Kong's development and hypothesizing how long it'd take the mainland under similar yoke and rule.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#38

Post by pavanred »

gentro wrote: post #14

You ever get the feeling this Nobel Prize and the western media's fawning coverage of Liu Xiaobo is really just about westerners making themselves feel better? China will get democracy one day. It will be because a large swath of Chinese people want it. Although there have been some high profile dissidents in China over the last 30 years, including Liu Xiaobo and the 1989 students, most Chinese are probably not ready…

We can't just simply discount the effect of the Nobel prize and world media coverage of Liu Xiaobo. I am reading the book Perfect Hostage by Justin Wintle, it's about the life of Aung San Suu Kyi. And, yes there were a lot of Burmese people and their leader who fought fearlessly for democracy, but I think in addition to that there is a real sizable effect of Suu Kyi winning the Nobel peace prize and world media coverage following it. Whether you like to attribute it or not, I think the effect is very real. Suu Kyi was house arrested for few years when she was awarded the Nobel prize, this was followed by many other awards and recognition, the world media coverage about Suu Kyi and their cause increased and so did the general awareness about the plight of the people and their struggle, and so did the diplomatic pressure from other countries, sanctions, embargoes etc. I know the situation of present day China and Burma in the early 90s is very different but I think the point still stands.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#39

Post by 23lk4jj4j2 »

colordrops wrote: post #35
23lk4jj4j2 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who visits China almost every year, and has spent quite a lot of time there including for study please consider what I'm going to say not as a criticism, but an attempt to help you understand how your words will likely be received. You haven't clarified any facts, you've just made two statements of opinion without any supporting evidence or greater explanation.

As someone who lived in china for 9 years, and married a Chinese woman, perhaps you could recognize that you might live in a very specific bubble in a culture very different from China, and that the perspective is so different that reaching out and trying to understand this person's world view might be more productive than tritely dismissing the comment on technicalities. I hate China's government and the way they op…

I would write off someone posting about any country if their entire statement could be boiled down to "X is reporting it wrong" without any evidence or examples...

It just so happens that this kind of statement is common in the Chinese people that I speak with.

You can make a very good case that Western media is terrible in its China reporting, but a blunt statement like that isn't going to be received well in a community like HN that likes to think of itself as critical.

As I said, I was trying to help them understand how their statement was likely to be received not "tritely dismissing the comment on technicalities." which is an interpretation entirely of your own that wasn't contained in my original post.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#40

Post by amygdyl »

charsifood wrote: post #29
dis-sys wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such censored view is not good for anyone. "It took Hong Kong 100 years to become what it is. Given the size of China, certainly it would need 300 years of colonisation for it to become like what Hong Kong is today. I even doubt whether 300 years would be enough." Liu Xiaobo made himself quite clear back in the 1980s. The in 1996, he further argued that "progress in China depends on westernisation and the more wester…

EDIT: @dang, please remove my post.

"My tendency to idealize Western civilization arises from my nationalistic desire to use the West in order to reform China"

I cannot read this without translating it in the way I imagined it would be heard in the offices of power, to mean he is freely admitting to the desire to subvert his own nation with foreign culture, no matter or difference his meaning or intent.

I'm being as literal as ever I can be, but I have understood that sentence as if I just read it being said about my country and not China. I would not be amused with someone saying that about England.

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