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I'm not a Woman in Tech

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Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#391

Post by kristineberth »

Klockan wrote: post #370
bbulkow wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point of the discussion. When you have women who are excluded and hit on and passed over simply because they are women, they come up with all kinds of solutions, including raising awareness that there are great women who are WOMEN and you should listen to "women in tech". The stage of creating women-only and women-focused groups ( and buying into the diminutive labeling the original author…

Is there any evidence that these movements actually get any results? To me it just seems like tokenism.

Depends how you define results. As a "woman in tech," I don't actively participate in these movements that much, but I certainly benefit from the extra visibility they give to women who are succeeding in this industry. I often think one of the biggest hurdles is finding relatable role models that can serve as a template for your own success and career path. When I first started out, there were a couple of obvious examples, but it was hard for me to picture what a female 'leader' should look like, aside from the old stereotype of a ball-busting corporate woman who acts like a man. That has meaningfully changed in the last few years. I now know -- and see -- a lot more examples of women who I can relate to, who are finding lots of success in this field. I realize this is anecdotal but in terms of my own career development, it feels significant. I tend to think it will benefit other women as well, and perhaps serve to normalize the idea of women succeeding in what was traditionally a male-dominated field, thereby attracting more young women to the field.

That said, I definitely recoil at the idea of being selected for any role or being treated differently simply because I'm female, since I would put my own abilities up against my male peers without hesitation. Special treatment feels condescending.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#392

Post by notyourday »

tawayyy wrote: post #77

I agree with what Maria says. One huge problem at this point, is that the "women in tech" problem is completely dominated by activists in this field, that does not happen to be always very balanced in their visions. Normal people try to disappear when there are those kind of discussions, because they escalate easily, and you can get hurt in many ways. So we as a community of programmers, should try to get more involv…

Worse, lots of those activists aren't themselves "women in tech" rather they are "women doing in companies that identify as 'tech'"

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#393

Post by Klockan »

and0 wrote: post #384
Klockan wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any evidence that these movements actually get any results? To me it just seems like tokenism.

Did you even try looking before asking this? I can think of a bunch in just the couple months, mainly in regards to Uber and other SV companies taking concrete steps to fix their culture.

Doubling down on sexual harassment and other abhorrent behavior is very different from having stuff like women-in-tech awards and women only tech meetups.

Also we have more initiatives than ever trying to get women into tech yet the numbers are at an all time low, shouldn't we admit that we need to change our approach?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#394

Post by falsedan »

iza wrote: post #316
falsedan wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a company should be focused on acquiring the best developers they can, not finding ones of a specific gender I agree, that's why I think companies should consider what is putting off women & why the gender balance in tech is so heavily weighted towards males. That is, most companies (regardless of conscious choice) are finding the best (young, white) male developers only.

> most companies (regardless of conscious choice) are finding the best (young, white) male developers only. It usually reflects the pool of applicants.

Which reflects the existing industry placements + recent graduates, which reflects the university applications, which reflects the high-school graduations, which reflects the typical 50/50 gender split of the general population.

If women are self-excluding, what is causing the hostility in that environment? If they're systemically-excluded, how do we remove it?

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#395

Post by kristineberth »

sremani wrote: post #82
throwaway170705 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm glad her experiences are such that she hasn't encountered these barriers, but other people have, and they need these words and spaces. This is what I intended to post; thanks for sharing your experience. I'm a gay Indian male living in Canada. I have never experienced marginalization for being Indian, but at my previous engagement, I experienced quite a bit of harassment and discrimination for being queer. Until…

It's important not to dismiss her experience as being extremely lucky. The thing is, there are lot of women like her, who were not harassed at their work places or have "grown-up" work environments with decent managers and HR policies.

Frankly I'd be surprised if she had never been harassed in some way. I know a grand total of zero women a decade into their careers who have literally never experienced some kind of harassment. Without being able to speak for her, I can surmise that maybe she just doesn't feel it needs to define her.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#396

Post by ducttapecrown »

Dove wrote: post #305

That's how I feel about it, too. There is no war. Women are not oppressed, men are not oppressors. We're all just people with problems who need support and compassion. Besides being morally wrong, a tribal approach is limiting. If you can't learn from, if you can't make friends and allies with people from all walks of life, if you must sit in your little castle with the few you count as your tribe -- are you not obvi…

>Boldly expect acceptance, and my experience has been -- you will receive it.

Thank you for your 2 anecdotes! Perhaps since Susan Fowler [0] followed your advice and did not achieve results, you will give her anecdote the same argumentative weight you give yours.

But there is a troubling trend I want to oppose. People seem to argue that getting vindictively angry and fighting for your rights is wrong, and that its better to sit back and let others like you be oppressed. Fortunately, someone else has written on the subject far more eloquently than I have. [1]

[0] https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-on...

[1] https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#397

Post by [deleted] »

exodust wrote: post #329
thegayngler wrote: post #147

As a black man I am going to disagree with some of what she said even if I can relate on some level. You need support when you are hired especially as an "under represented" person. If the company didn't think you needed support they simply wouldn't be offering it. Most of the "not under represented" people have support that helps them become more successful.

Completely lost on your meaning, sorry. I literally have no idea what you mean. Care to elaborate? "Most of the not under represented people"... say what?

[deleted]

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#398

Post by Software_Sucks »

meej wrote: post #267

"You’re victimising me when you do that. You’re indicating that it’s most likely I need special, extra support. Just because I’m female." This is exactly how I felt during my Microsoft internship in 1998 when the internal women's organization, HOPPERS, decided to change their successful "intern buddy" program from opt-in to opt-out. (Well, not really opt-out, because until I got upset with them about it they clearly…

Two words. Virtue signalling. Thats all that it boils down to.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#399

Post by root_axis »

dang wrote: post #355

> So you just don't like to hear opposing views? Personally abrasive escalation takes threads into flamewar, so please edit such things out of your comments here. As a bonus, the signal/noise ratio of your comments will get higher. Edit: fixed now, so I've detached this from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14703776 and marked it off-topic.

Fair enough. I can't edit at this time, but noted for the future.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#400

Post by hosh »

eeeeeeeeeeeee wrote: post #357
hosh wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something my friends and I were talking about privately for a while now. One of the things that came out of it was something summed up by one of my friends -- stop founding movements, start founding communities. Modernism (and I'm talking as far back as the early 1900s, and arguably, even earlier than that) has eroded our sense community. Our communication tech has, over the past few centuries, have allowed p…

I get none of those reactions. BLM are simply asking for equal treatment, not special treatment. Considering the "all lives matter" movement, if you can call it that, is more of a spiteful and petty response to BLM, I'm not sure it's a great example. A movement does not need to devolve into "us v. them" and cause those kind of responses you list. The only reason BLM would be offensive and cause those reactions is if…

> The only reason BLM would be offensive and cause those reactions is if this statement is offensive to your being -- black people having equal rights as white people.

Yes, that's the obvious response. There is also the other responses: that you can live with white people without fear, resentment, anger, disgust, or despair. Like being able to go onto a bus and not have judgements made on you that you're dangerous or seeing fear flicker in white people's faces, and in turn, put on a blank mask because to get angry will confirm all those fears. (Disclaimer: I'm not black; I people-watch a lot). There's a mirroring effect that happens where you don't know whose fear it is, or whose fear "started" it.

> I would be interesting in hearing more practical examples of how a community would better solve some of these problems (or historical 20th century problems) over a movement, or what that distinction truly is or means. Definitely curious!

I would too. This is the first time I am trying out these ideas outside my circle of friends, so I'm still working out concrete examples and brainstorming with others.

That was why my attempt here started with an empathy-visualization exercise to test the waters.

Here's another test: in my yuppie neighborhood I live in within metro Phoenix (which isn't my first choice, but family circumstances ... ) people get very passionate about homeless people on Next Door. There are vocal people who wants to kick them out and a smaller, but just as vocal group that talks about what it is like to be homeless. Some people want to call the cops. Some people reported a soup kitchen as a homeless hangout. (There _are_ people who case homes, or things like use card skimmers to steal credit cards, or try to arrange for a busted tire in order to corner a woman driving alone; it isn't as if this place was crime-free either).

Using this frame about community, we can ask these questions: are homeless and vagrants a part of this local community or not? Can you see yourself living with them? Or do you feel disgust and fear?

It's best to test for emotional reactions where your personal body and your family -- especially your children -- may actually be under threat. (In the esoteric martial arts, we call this "heart living under the sword": can you _really_ maintain loving-kindness even in face of threat, danger, and aggression?)

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