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I'm a creep. I'm sorry

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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#441

Post by escapetech »

collyw wrote: post #390
escapetech wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You personally may think dating coworkers is fine under some circumstances, and so may the other person potentially involved, but others not involved and observing may find it unacceptable under any circumstance. One goal of the workplace is to ensure equal treatment and equal protection to all of its workers under any and all circumstances.

A quick google suggests that nearly 40% of people have dated a co-worker, so to say it is wrong under any circumstances seems a silly.

The lengths that companies will go to protect themselves from lawsuits is silly, but at the same time necessary given the potentially problematic behaviors and motivations of certain employees.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#442

Post by BrandoElFollito »

xupybd wrote: post #428
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This may be a cultural thing, but inviting someone to go to church would be at least astonishing in France (and the rest of Europe). This is just not the place you go for a date. There could be some circumstances where this is possible ("hey, my church has its annual fiesta, plenty of people dressed up in a traditional way - you know, the famous one! Wanna come see that?", or a marriage/baptem/other family / friends…

Inviting someone on a date to church does seem odd. But what about the following: Co-worker "What did you get up to this weekend". Me "Just the usual. Lazy Saturday, church took up most of Sunday, what about you". Co-worker "Not much just watched a few movies. You go to church? Really?" Me "Haha yeah I do, you're welcome to check it out if your interested."

> You go to church, really?

is something you will never hear from civilized people in France, not in that context.

People will discuss religion as part of a general discussion, but context is everything.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#443

Post by BrandoElFollito »

paulddraper wrote: post #436
lancewiggs wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries that still plays very badly and it could change your relationship forever. In the USA, which is an extraordinarily religious country versus other Western countries, the response is likely to be more nuanced, but there are sill the many matters of which religion, sect and so on to consider. Going to a (particular type) of church risks being seen as a political statement as well. Best to avoid.

I had a high school German teacher who said politics and religion were two taboos for polite American conversation, but Europeans can have more civilized discussion about these topics. Is this not true?

It is, but religion is not a very trendy subject.

Politics yes, and I would not say that it is very civilized, so people avoid it not because of political correctness (so to speak) but rather because these discussions tend to get heated.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#444

Post by r3vo »

Can someone explain to me what he did exactly?

I know he messaged a woman saying "I don't know if I should hire you or hit on you."

What kind of environment were they in? Were they hanging out socially or professionally? Was she formally in a recruitment process with his firm?

It seems to me that they were in a socially ambiguous situation and that McClure interpreted the environment wrong and did some innocuous flirting. This doesn't seem like a huge deal to me.

This stepping down from his job and public self-flagellation seems overblown to me but I feel like I may not fully understand what his actions exactly were.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#445

Post by Latty »

sangnoir wrote: post #360
Latty wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or he realized he has done something wrong and wants to be clear that's not who he wants to be? I was out drinking with friends from my University course, back in the day, and made some statement like "uh, well don't be fags about it" - a hangover from my days at a boys only secondary school where "gay" was the most common term for bad and "fag" was the most common insult. Now, I have no issues with people's sexualit…

> How I acted didn't represent my views, it isn't who I want to be, and it's not how I'd want to interact with anyone. I'm sorry, but this does not make sense to me. Of course what you said and how you acted represented your views at the time. It wasn't who you wanted to be , but it was who you were . You absolutely used the term fag as an insult and you meant it. I'm posting this not to judge you or be self-righteou…

Except I didn't hold the view that being gay was a negative thing, rather I had gotten so used to the terms being thrown around that I used them in that way despite not agreeing with that. It's similar to how I can use "dumb" to describe someone as stupid without believing that people who can't speak are stupid. I meant to insult the person (and if I'd chosen another word, that would have been fine as it was clearly intended as a friendly, joking thing), but I didn't intend to imply that being gay was a bad thing.

It's a fine line that mostly relies on knowing my own intent - and I make no reservations in stating that whatever my intent, I know I caused harm at the time and I actively worked to ensure that I don't use "gay" and "fag" in that way, because it does have those effects.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#446

Post by Latty »

sangnoir wrote: post #407
kd5bjo wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an emotionally-charged situation, it's easy to forget that curse words have an actual meaning other than being an insult. In the situation where your views on what's acceptable have changed, like Latty described, you can slip into old verbal habits pretty easily without realizing it.

> In the situation where your views on what's acceptable have changed, like Latty described, you can slip into old verbal habits pretty easily without realizing it. I fully agree, however, I think that's just your views slipping out. You might not want to be that way, but you are that way, possibly because of how you were raised or some other factor you didn't have control over. Saying "that is not a true reflection…

Except I didn't (and still don't, of course) hold any negative views about gay people. I'll make the same analogy as I did in my other comment - people use "dumb" to mean stupid all of the time. Do those people harbour subconscious anti-mute sentiments, or are they just picking a word that they think of as meaning "stupid"?

Likewise, at the time, I could have replaced "fag" with "dick" with no qualms at the time. It was an insult, and it's meaning didn't matter to me. (Until I was reminded of it's meaning and harm I was causing, which made me stop using it).

I guess I'd describe it as - I'd become desensitized to the meaning of the term and used it not expecting it to cause any harm. You can say that surely it's obvious that it causes harm, but it wasn't obvious to me until the described moment that I was propagating this negative idea of homosexuality. When I did notice that, I stopped.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#447

Post by jhall1468 »

masondixon wrote: post #368
jhall1468 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual harrasment? What he did was unethical, immoral and objectively wrong, sexual harrasment is a crime. This wasn't a crime. I'm sure, as a perfect individual you've never done anything unethical or immoral. As such, your "never forgive" attitude is perfectly justifiable.

> objectively wrong Where can I find a list of "objectively wrong" things, and is there some kind of formal process to challenge them?

Let's make one:

1. Sexual advances towards people you hold power over.

So far so good.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#448

Post by tripzilch »

paulddraper wrote: post #436
lancewiggs wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries that still plays very badly and it could change your relationship forever. In the USA, which is an extraordinarily religious country versus other Western countries, the response is likely to be more nuanced, but there are sill the many matters of which religion, sect and so on to consider. Going to a (particular type) of church risks being seen as a political statement as well. Best to avoid.

I had a high school German teacher who said politics and religion were two taboos for polite American conversation, but Europeans can have more civilized discussion about these topics. Is this not true?

I'm European and I can have super uncivilised discussions about these topics.

Otherwise, yeah, but I think it matters a lot what crowd you hang out with. The USA is a big place, and so is Europe.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#450

Post by petraeus »

thehardsphere wrote: post #396
fatbird wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming these guys see this as a problem. I suspect for most of them, the power issues are, erotically, the whole point. Why patronize a prostitute for make believe alpha male abuse of one's position when one has the real thing every day?

Plus, if it really is a power thing, then paying for the prostitute immediately screws that up. They're paying, so they know it's not as real as it would be if they didn't. Maybe if you could pay prostitutes for them as a third party in some way, that could work.

We need the Uber of prostitution!
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